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3.1- The Three Estates

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Show notes > The population of pre-Revolutionary France was divided into Three Estates: the Church, the Nobility and Everyone Else.
  • Show notes link:: open website
  • Tags: #podcasts #snipd
  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

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[06:15] The French People were Divided Into Three Estates

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French Revolution: The Three Estates

  • Pre-revolutionary French society was divided into the Three Estates: clergy, nobility, and everyone else (commoners).
  • This division was a medieval holdover, categorizing people into those who prayed, fought, and worked.
  • The commoners (Third Estate) comprised about 95% of the population, with most of them being peasants.

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

Of where they lived though, the French people were divided up into the famous three estates, a division still lingering from the old medieval days when society could be separated into Those who prayed, those who fought, and those who worked. The first estate, those who prayed, was the clergy. The second estate, those who fought, was the nobility. And the third estate, those who worked, was everyone else. That is to say, something like 95% of the population. So the vast majority of the third estate, and about four-fifths of the total population of France, were peasants. These peasants can be divided up into three basic subgroups. At the bottom were your landless peasants, forced to become migrant workers or day laborers to stay alive. In many areas,

[05:37] The French People were Divided Into Three Estates

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The Three Estates of France

  • Pre-revolutionary French society was divided into the Three Estates, a medieval division.
  • The First Estate was the clergy (those who prayed).
  • The Second Estate was the nobility (those who fought).
  • The Third Estate encompassed everyone else (those who worked), about 95% of the population, including peasants, townspeople, and city dwellers.

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

Of where they lived though, the French people were divided up into the famous three estates, a division still lingering from the old medieval days when society could be separated into Those who prayed, those who fought, and those who worked.

[08:00] French Agriculture in the Eighteenth Century

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French Peasant Classes

  • Independent French farmers owned enough land to sustain themselves and provide jobs for rural workers.
  • Lower-class peasants envied and feared these independent farmers, aspiring to their status while dreading the potential loss of their small holdings through loans.

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

Simultaneously aspiring to join the ranks of the independent farmers they feared. So leaving behind the peasants in the countryside, the remainder of the three estates lived in urban areas, though calling them urban is not quite

[09:14] The Guild System

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Guild System and French Revolution

  • The organization of skilled workers through the guild system contributed to the French Revolution.
  • The restrictive nature of guilds, with apprentices serving long periods like indentured servants, created tension.
  • After becoming journeymen, they often traveled, leading to conflicts with local competitors or other journeymen.

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

The unskilled workers, we find, not surprisingly, the skilled workers. The organization of the skilled workers was itself one of the little tributaries feeding into the great river that is the causes of the French Revolution, because the guild system, In

[10:31] The Guild System

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French Revolution - Guild System

  • The French guild system in the 1700s was a source of frustration.
  • Apprentices were like indentured servants, followed by journeymen who traveled and competed, before finally becoming masters.
  • This restrictive system clashed with the rising popularity of free-trade economic theories.
  • The urban workers, both skilled and unskilled, who were excluded from the guilds, later became key participants in the French Revolution, known as the sans-culottes.

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

The unskilled workers, we find, not surprisingly, the skilled workers. The organization of the skilled workers was itself one of the little tributaries feeding into the great river that is the causes of the French Revolution, because the guild system, In all of its restrictive glory, was still in full effect. Apprentices were little more than indentured servants forced to serve some specified time, say seven years, before they were allowed to become journeymen, at which point they often Took to the road to ply their trade and get into nasty fights with local competitors or other journeymen they happened to run across. After whatever arbitrary time was up, they were allowed to become masters, buying their way into the club, and settling down to set up a permanent shop, taking on apprentices, and starting The whole cycle over again. The guild system was a source of constant frustration for those not directly profiting from it, and as the 1700s progressed and economic theory turned to free the continued existence Of the medieval guild system was an affront to thinking men everywhere. It is also worth mentioning that it will be from the ranks of these urban workers, both skilled and unskilled, that the famous sans-culottes will come storming out of as the revolution Picks up steam. Sans-culottes, meaning those who did not wear the silk- breeches favored by the upper classes. Above the skilled workers, we move into the ranks of the secure urban elite, the guys who did favor silk knee breeches, known to us as the bourgeoisie.

[11:56] The Great Investment Opportunity

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Bourgeoisie’s Investment Strategies in 18th Century France

  • In 18th-century France, ambitious members of the rising bourgeoisie didn’t reinvest their wealth in trade.
  • Instead, they sought to elevate their social status by purchasing land or venal offices (government positions).
  • This shift in investment strategy reflects the social dynamics of the Ancien Régime, where upward mobility meant aligning with the existing power structures of land ownership and government office.
  • This upward mobility created new problems as the bourgeois landowners enforced feudal claims more diligently than the old aristocratic owners.

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

But critically, since we are still living in the Ancien Régime, if you were ambitious, you generally did not funnel your money back into the trades that had enriched you. Instead, you aimed at buying your way into the nobility. So you transferred the money you made in the grubby business of trade into land on the one hand or venal office on the other. Land has of course been the great marker of wealth and status for, oh, let's say the entire history of civilization, so I don't think that needs much explanation, aside from mentioning That when the up-and bourgeoisie bought the land, they were quite a bit more diligent about enforcing whatever feudal claims could be made on the tenants, claims that the former noble Owners had often long since forgotten about, and in many provinces, complaints about the new bourgeois landlords far outnumbered complaints about the old aristocratic landlords. The other great investment opportunity was

[14:19] Venal Office

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Venal Office and Upward Mobility

  • In pre-revolutionary France, venal offices (government positions that could be purchased) offered a path to upward mobility for the bourgeoisie.
  • Many of these offices came with privileges like ennoblement (often after a few generations or immediately for certain positions, such as King’s Secretary) and tax exemptions.
  • These offices became a form of property themselves, increasing in price with demand from the expanding bourgeoisie.
  • For those at the top of the third estate who could live off investments and rents, buying a venal office was often a stepping stone to joining the second estate (the nobility).

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

Had to be held for a few successive generations for the ennoblement to kick in, but some, including the aforementioned office of king's secretary, brought ennoblement immediately. These offices also usually carried tax exemptions of various shapes and sizes, because as we'll discuss a bit more next week, pre-revolutionary France operated on the rather upside-down Principle that the better off you were, the less you paid in taxes. Over the years, these offices became a form of property in themselves, and as the ranks of the bourgeoisie expanded, the prices of the venal offices rose with demand. By the late 1780, something close to a billion lever was tied up in venal office, and yes, that is an insane amount of money. At the very tippy top of the third estate was a little group who, quote, lived nobly. That is, they no longer even worked at a profession, but instead lived off land rents or other investments. But the reason this group was so small was because if you had acquired the means to live nobly, you were probably in the process of buying your way into the nobility, that is, the second Estate, and leaving the ranks of the third estate behind for good. So with the help of some venal office, it's time to move up into the second estate, the nobility. By this point, the population of the nobility was somewhere between 120,000 and 400,000, records being patchy and often unreliable, since there were more than a few forged claims Out there. This little clique, and we're talking no more than 1-2 % of the population, owned

[15:24] The Nobility in France

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French Nobility: Old vs New

  • The French nobility comprised 1-2% of the pre-revolutionary population and owned a significant portion of the land.
  • They held feudal rights and controlled non-trading and, less openly, trading industries, actively participating in the shift from feudalism to capitalism.
  • The nobility was divided into ‘sword nobility’ (old money, lineage-based) and ‘robe nobility’ (newly wealthy, title-purchasing).
  • The old nobility looked down on the new, creating tension within the second estate.
  • The newly rich resented their continued treatment as commoners despite their elevated status.

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

With the help of some venal office, it's time to move up into the second estate, the nobility. By this point, the population of the nobility was somewhere between 120,000 and 400,000, records being patchy and often unreliable, since there were more than a few forged claims Out there. This little clique, and we're talking no more than 1-2 % of the population, owned outright a quarter to a third of all the land in France and held feudal rights over the rest, that is, the Right to collect certain taxes or the right to force tenants to use your mills and wine presses at whatever arbitrary price you set. Owned a controlling interest in almost all the non-trading commercial pursuits, like mining and metallurgy, and less openly owned a controlling interest in most of the trading industry, Using surrogates in the Third Estate to skirt prohibitions on the nobles engaging in trade. So, far from resisting the evolution from feudalism to capitalism, the nobility was right in the middle of it. At least, some of them were, because the nobility was not at all one unified class. For starters, as you can imagine, the old nobility, the ones who could trace their lineage back 700 years, did not think much of the new nobility, you know, the textile merchant who just Bought his title last Thursday. These two types were described as the sword nobility and the robe nobility. The former owed their status to their medieval ancestors having fought alongside the king, the latter to some recently acquired venal office. And

[16:56] The Nobility and the Church

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French Nobility Divisions

  • The French nobility was divided into the ‘sword’ (old money) and ‘robe’ nobility (new money).
  • The sword nobility, despite their lineage, were often less wealthy than the robe nobility.
  • The robe nobility had gained status through recently acquired positions or wealth, but were still looked down upon by the old nobility.
  • Despite this divide, marriages between the two groups were common, especially to improve the financial standing of the old nobility.
  • The wealthiest of the nobility, possessing both lineage and fortune, held influential positions and resided at Versailles.

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

By recent, the old nobility meant anything less than about four generations. So the sword nobility generally turned up their noses at the robe nobility, while the robe nobility were ticked off that having climbed into the ranks of the second estate, they were Still being treated as commoners. It also did not help that because of the way French inheritance laws worked, the fortunes of the old nobility had generally eroded to almost nothing, so most of the wealth of the second Estate was held by these former shopkeepers who didn't even know what fork to use at dinner. Not that the cultivated old nobles were at all opposed to marrying their sons to the daughters of these barbaric new nobles. At the very top rung of the nobility, though, were those who both held ancient lineages and had managed to keep their fortunes intact, or had successfully gilded their arms, as the saying Went, by a fortuitous marriage or two along the way. These guys were the ones who were still able to afford to live with the king at Versailles, and they dominated all the major positions in the royal ministry, the military, the judiciary, And the church. This group, as you can imagine, tended to be rather conservative, but it is also from these ranks that we find some of the key members of the liberal nobility, who will be so essential To the first stage of the revolution, for example, our old friend the Marquis de Lafayette. So that brings us to the first estate, the church.

[18:11] The Three Estates of the Encion Regime

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French Revolution: Church as Microcosm

  • The French Church mirrored the kingdom’s social structure, effectively making it a two-estate system (nobility and commons).
  • High-ranking clergy positions (bishops, abbots) were dominated by the younger sons of the nobility, controlling significant wealth and land.
  • Parish priests, on the other hand, were recruited from the lower rungs of the Third Estate, creating a significant divide within the Church.

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

That brings us to the first estate, the church. There were about 130,000 members of the French clergy, and collectively the church owned about 10% of all the land in France. But as the great historian Georges Lefevre noted in his compact but highly influential coming of the French Revolution, when you talk about the three estates of the Ancien Régime, You're really only talking about two estates, the nobility and the commons, because the church was really just a microcosm of the kingdom at large. Way back in 1516, the Pope had conceded to the King of France the right to appoint all the bishops and abbots of the French church. Not surprisingly, these top-level jobs, which carried with them massive salaries, the right to collect tithes, and control of all those church-held lands, became dominated by the Younger sons of the French nobility. Meanwhile, the vast majority of the 130,000 clergy were parish priests, recruited from the ranks of the Third Estate, and usually the lower rungs of the Third Estate at that. Not the lowest-lowest rungs, since your family still had to buy you some kind of rudimentary education, but there was still a massive gulf between the noble ecclesiastic authorities On the one hand and the common rank-and priesthood on the other. This will become a point

[17:34] The Three Estates of the Encion Regime

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French Revolution’s Two Estates

  • Historian George Lefebvre argues that pre-revolutionary French society wasn’t truly divided into three estates.
  • The First Estate (the Church) mirrored the broader societal structure, with top positions filled by nobility and lower clergy drawn from the Third Estate.
  • This makes the Church a microcosm of the existing class divisions rather than a separate entity.
  • The real division lay between the privileged (nobility and high-ranking clergy) and the commoners (Third Estate and lower clergy).

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

As the great historian Georges Lefevre noted in his compact but highly influential coming of the French Revolution, when you talk about the three estates of the Ancien Régime, you're Really only talking about two estates, the nobility and the commons, because the church was really just a microcosm of the kingdom at large. Way back in 1516, the Pope had conceded to the King of France the right to appoint all the bishops and abbots of the French church. Not surprisingly, these top-level jobs,

[21:22] Louis the 14th - The King of Versailles

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Louis XIV and Versailles

  • King Louis XIV converted a royal hunting lodge outside of Paris into the Palace of Versailles.
  • The palace was meant to project royal power and centralize control over the nobility.
  • Nobles, previously troublesome in their home provinces, were compelled to attend the king at Versailles.
  • This strategy aimed to weaken their regional influence by separating them from their bases of power.
  • Louis XIV offered lavish gifts and favors at Versailles, further consolidating his authority over the nobles.

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

When Louis XIV began to rule in his own name, he accelerated the process of political centralization started by Richelieu, culminating most famously with his conversion of a royal Hunting lodge outside of Paris into the palace of Versailles. The

[25:07] Louis the Six Tent

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Louis XVI’s Reign

  • Louis XVI became king in 1774 at age 19, succeeding his grandfather Louis XV.
  • While well-intentioned, he was not trained to rule effectively.
  • Married Austrian Archduchess Marie Antoinette at 15; the marriage was initially strained and unpopular.
  • Public and private mockery aimed at the royal couple.

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

That brings us finally to our man Louis XVI. The grandson of Louis XV, he ascended to the throne in May 1774 at the age of 19. Still young, but he did manage to break the streak of five-year ruling France. Though pretty much everyone agrees that his heart was in the right place, and he genuinely wanted to do right by his people, he was ill-prepared for the role of king. He was bright and athletic, at least in his youth, but he was also shy and uncomfortable in the spotlight. Unfortunately for him, the system set up by Louis XIV basically created the brightest spotlight imaginable for him to step into. His father had died when he was 11, which left him the heir to the throne, and though he received a standard upper-class education in the humanities, he was, for whatever reason, not Given much instruction in the practical business of how to effectively rule a giant kingdom. When he was 15, he was married to the 14-year Austrian archduchess Marie Antoinette, a pairing that for a good long time was uncomfortable socially, emotionally, and physically, And it was generally

[26:30] The Resistance to Change

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Obstacles to Reform

  • Louis XVI faced significant resistance to reform upon ascending the throne.
  • Pre-revolutionary France was not a straightforward absolute monarchy; entrenched interests defended their privileges.
  • This resistance complicated the new king’s attempts to address the longstanding issues, such as tax structure and social inequality.

📚 Transcript

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Mike Duncan

And everywhere you turned, there were entrenched interests ready to fight for their ancient privileges, whatever those interests and privileges turned out to be. That resistance to change only exacerbated all the other issues facing the new king. And next week, we will methodically walk through the list. The completely backward tax structure, the endemic social inequality, a judicial system that prized privilege over justice, administrative jurisdictions that overlapped haphazardly, A church that gobbled up money and seemed to give nothing back, an outmoded

S7 E7: Gilded Age 2.0

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Show notes > S7 E7: Gilded Age 2.0
> After 40 years of neoliberalism, most Americans of every political stripe agree that the economy is “rigged” in favor of corporations and the wealthy. But we may not know the half of it. 
> By John Biewen, with co-host Ellen McGirt. Interviews with Nancy MacLean, Edward Balleisen, Brad DeLong, Marjorie Kelly, and Oren Cass. Story editor: Loretta Williams. Music by Michelle Osis, Lilli Haydn, Chris Westlake, Alex Symcox, and Goodnight, Lucas. Music consulting by Joe Augustine of Narrative Music. 
> "Capitalism” is a production of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University, in partnership with Imperative 21. 
>
>
> Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices
  • Show notes link:: open website
  • Tags: #podcasts #snipd
  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Snips

[10:55] Nixon’s Economic Stance

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Nixon’s Economic Stance

  • In the early 1970s, President Nixon’s economic policies were more aligned with future Democratic approaches than those of future Republicans like Reagan.
  • While he advocated for welfare reform, he also proposed a guaranteed minimum income for families with dependent children.
  • This demonstrated that the prevailing consensus during the “30 glorious years” of a mixed economy with strong unions and a welfare state still influenced those in power.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

And Nixon was many things, but on economic policy he was more like a future Clinton than a future Reagan. He called for welfare reform, but he talked like this about his anti-poverty agenda in a speech to the nation in 1969.

Speaker 2

What I am proposing is that the federal government build a foundation under the income of every American family with dependent children that cannot care for its own.

Speaker 1

And wherever in America that family may live. Which is to say, that establishment consensus of the 30 glorious years, let's have capitalism but with strong unions and a welfare state, still pretty much held sway among the people In power in the early 70s. This was deeply frustrating to some corporate leaders and folks at business advocacy groups like the United States Chamber of Commerce. One of the chamber's leaders asked his friend Louis Powell to write an internal memo, a call to action for the organization. Powell delivered. American business plainly is in trouble. The to the wide range of critics has been ineffective and has included appeasement. The time has come, indeed it is long overdue, for the wisdom, ingenuity, and resources of American business to be marshaled against those who would destroy it. In his 34-page memorandum Powell describes what he calls a widespread attack on the free enterprise system.

[10:06] 1970s Political Climate

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1970s Political Climate

  • In the early 1970s, a mixed economy consensus prevailed in the US.
  • This combined capitalist markets with strong labor unions and a welfare state.
  • This approach was widely accepted among those in power at the time.
  • Despite a Republican president (Nixon), Democrats held Congressional majorities.
  • Nixon’s economic policies leaned more towards future Clinton-style approaches than Reagan’s.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Which is to say, that establishment consensus of the 30 glorious years, let's have capitalism but with strong unions and a welfare state, still pretty much held sway among the people In power in

[11:51] Powell’s Advocacy for Business Political Power

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Powell’s Advocacy for Business Political Power

  • Lewis Powell advised the U.S. Chamber of Commerce to aggressively cultivate and utilize political power.
  • He believed that influencing public opinion would take time and that direct political action was necessary.
  • Powell urged businesses to learn from labor and other special interest groups who effectively use political power to advance their agendas.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

But Powell said, changing public opinion would take time, so the chamber should also push ahead on another front.

Speaker 3

Business must learn the lesson, long ago learned by labor and other self-interest groups.

Speaker 1

This

[14:37] Milton Friedman’s Influence

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Milton Friedman’s Influence

  • Milton Friedman became a prominent economic thinker and advisor to presidents and presidential candidates.
  • Despite, or perhaps because of, his provocative views, he gained significant popularity.
  • Friedman advocated for reduced government regulation, taxation, and overall size, arguing that people weren’t getting their money’s worth from government spending.
  • He was associated with the libertarian, pro-market movement supported by wealthy elites like the Koch brothers.
  • Friedman, along with Charles Koch and Friedrich von Hayek, were members of the Mont Pelerin Society, a neoliberal organization.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 3

You are the counselor to presidents and presidential candidates.

Speaker 1

It's really a wonderful spot to Friedman had become a go-to celebrity economic thinker, despite the fact, or because, he was so provocative. In 1970, he wrote a bombshell article for The New York Times titled, The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Prof Friedman wrote that business leaders who try to defend Free enterprise by insisting that their companies also benefit their employees, the community, or the environment are preaching pure and unadulterated socialism. Here's Friedman on Donohue arguing that government should regulate less, tax less, and just plain shrink. Right now, to take the simplest measure, the government spending at federal, state, and local levels amounts to over 40 percent of the income of the people of the country. If you go around and ask people, are you getting your money's worth for that 40 percent of your income which is being spent on your behalf supposedly by government? There are very few people who will say yes, and they are right. We're not getting our money's worth. It's not merely that it's being wasted. Milton Friedman was a leading spokesman for a libertarian, pro-market movement, led and funded by wealthy elites, most crucially the Koch brothers, Charles and David,

[13:33] Friedman on Social Responsibility

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Friedman on Social Responsibility

  • Milton Friedman became a prominent economic thinker, despite his provocative views.
  • In 1970, he argued that businesses’ sole responsibility is to increase profits.
  • He criticized business leaders who claimed their companies benefited employees or communities as preaching socialism.
  • He viewed such actions as undermining free enterprise.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Friedman had become a go-to celebrity economic thinker, despite the fact, or because, he was so provocative. In 1970, he wrote a bombshell article for The New York Times titled, The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Prof

[15:35] How to increase support for free markets

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How to increase support for free markets

  • Friedrich von Hayek, a key figure in the neoliberal movement, believed it was unlikely to convince the majority of people to believe in the free market.
  • Instead, he suggested focusing on fostering public dislike of government intervention.
  • The strategy was to highlight how government overreach restricts individual freedom, becomes controlling, and doesn’t serve the people effectively.
  • This approach aimed to indirectly increase support for free markets by emphasizing the negative aspects of government involvement.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

The market giveth, the market taketh away, blessed be the name of the market. In an interview in 1978, Hayek talked political strategy, how to overcome most people's skepticism at the time toward laissez-faire economics.

Speaker 3

You can never unless expect the majority of the people to regain their belief in the market as such. But I think you can expect to come to dislike government in the fields.

[18:03] James Buchanan’s Influence

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James Buchanan’s Influence

  • James McGill Buchanan, a Nobel-winning economist, preferred to operate behind the scenes, unlike Milton Friedman.
  • He held radical anti-government views, advocating for private schools and disenfranchising government employees.
  • Buchanan, collaborating with Charles Koch, sought to establish a ‘counter-intelligentsia’ to promote libertarian ideas.
  • Koch subsequently funded numerous think tanks and lobbying groups, including the Cato Institute, Heritage Foundation, and the Federalist Society, profoundly impacting American politics.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 2

So James McGill Buchanan, and if listeners haven't heard of him, don't feel bad. I never had when I started and most people have not. He was quite content to be in the shadows, unlike some others like Milton Friedman.

Speaker 1

Buchanan held radical anti-government ideas. He thought all schools should be privately run and that workers who get a government paycheck have a conflict of interest and shouldn't be allowed to vote. Buchanan and Charles Koch met in about 1970, Maclean found. In a memo to like-minded colleagues in 1973, Buchanan echoed the Lewis Powell memo. The libertarian right being badly outnumbered, needed to create, support, and activate an effective counter-intelligentsia.

Speaker 2

And he was also quite plain spoken about how to do it. He said they needed to create a gravy train. That's his language. A gravy train for kind of the care and feeding of this libertarian counter-intelligentsia, which is of course what Charles Koch then began to do.

Speaker 1

The Kochs created and funded a striking array of think tanks and lobbying groups. Many are fixtures in American society to this day.

Speaker 3

The director of the Center for Study of Science at the Cato Institute.... And manager of the Heritage Foundation's Mies legal center. Nice to see you, sir. Nice for having me.

Speaker 2

The Cato Institute, of course, which started

[19:26] Koch Network Influence

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Koch Network Influence

  • Charles Koch, inspired by James Buchanan’s idea of a ‘gravy train,’ funded numerous organizations to promote libertarian ideas.
  • These include the Cato Institute, Heritage Foundation, Federalist Society, Americans for Prosperity, Mercatus Center, and ALEC.
  • These groups have significantly impacted US politics, from shaping Supreme Court appointments to influencing state legislation and even developing plans like ‘Project 2025’ for a second Trump term.
  • This infrastructure of influence reflects a deliberate strategy to counter opposing viewpoints and implement conservative policies.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Kochs created and funded a striking array of think tanks and lobbying groups. Many are fixtures in American society to this day.

Speaker 3

The director of the Center for Study of Science at the Cato Institute.... And manager of the Heritage Foundation's Mies legal center. Nice to see you, sir. Nice for having me.

Speaker 2

The Cato Institute, of course, which started as the Charles Koch Foundation, the Heritage Society, Charles Koch boasts that he provided seed money to the Federalist Society. We now have a Federalist Society Supreme Court majority.

Speaker 1

It's the Heritage Foundation that produced Project 2025, the extreme authoritarian blueprint for a second Trump presidential term. The list of coke-funded groups goes on. Americans for Prosperity, which provided talking points and financial muscle to the supposedly grassroots tea party movement that arose against the Obama administration. The Mercatus Center, which pushes for government deregulation, and ALEC, the American Legislative Exchange Council, whose members are conservative state lawmakers. They pass hundreds of state laws every year, cutting taxes and environmental regulations and weakening unions.

Speaker 3

It's really a stunning infrastructure.

Speaker 2

I at one point try to keep track of it and we're talking about literally hundreds of organizations.

Speaker 1

But it wasn't just the right-wing public relations drive that led to change five decades ago.

Speaker 3

The United States economy ran into headwinds in the 1970s.

Speaker 1

There was inflation related to the Vietnam War and oil shocks and that inflation was persistent.

[33:49] Neoliberal Consensus Consequences

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Neoliberal Consensus Consequences

  • Under the neoliberal consensus, government regulations were reduced across industries, and labor laws weakened, hindering worker organization.
  • Union membership drastically declined from one-third of U.S. workers in 1960 to less than 15% by 2000.
  • Large tax cuts primarily benefited high-income earners and corporations.
  • This era saw the rise of executives like Jack Welch, who prioritized profit maximization as the sole social responsibility of business.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

This neoliberal consensus, government regulations were reduced in virtually every industry. Labor laws and their enforcement were weakened, making it harder for workers to organize. In 1960, one-third of U.S. Workers were union members, by 2000 that had dropped by more than half to less than 15 percent. Congress passed enormous tax cuts, the biggest under Republican presidents like Reagan and George W. Bush. Today, I am sending to Congress my plan to provide relief to all income taxpayers, which I believe will help jumpstart the American economy. The lion's share of those cuts went to people with the highest incomes and corporations. Meanwhile, in the private sector, a new breed of hard-charging corporate executives embraced the ethos championed by Milton Friedman. That the social responsibility of business is to increase its profits.

[36:28] Foxconn’s Labor Practices

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (35:17 - 36:27)

Foxconn’s Labor Practices

  • In 2012, ABC News got a rare look inside a Foxconn plant in China, where iPhones and other electronics are made.
  • Workers there earned just over $2 an hour and worked 60 hours a week.
  • This contrasted sharply with US electronics workers who earned over $23 an hour and worked 41 hours a week.
  • The report mentioned 18 Foxconn workers who had died by suicide, prompting the installation of safety nets.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

Foxconn attracts a lot of business by having workers close to the assembly line. They spend 12 hours a day in the factory with two one-hour meal breaks to march single file to a massive canteen for meat and rice.

Speaker 1

In this ABC News report from 2012, reporter Bill Weir got a rare look inside a gigantic Foxconn plant in China. The Taiwan-based company makes iPhones and other products for Apple, Intel, and other electronics makers. While the average worker building electronics in the U.S.

Speaker 3

Today makes over $23 an hour and works 41 hours a week, most of the people at Foxconn earn just over $2 an hour and strive for a 60-hour work week.

Speaker 1

The report included a mention of the 18 Foxconn workers who had recently died after jumping off company buildings.

Speaker 3

The suicide nets are still in place, just in case.

Speaker 1

Estimates say just between 2000 and 2010, U.S. Closed a staggering 57,000 manufacturing plants in the US and cut almost 6 million jobs.

[38:49] Financialization of the Economy

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (37:19 - 38:51)

Financialization of the Economy

  • The destruction of American jobs and decline in job quality were accelerated by financialization.
  • Financialization, according to Marjorie Kelly, involves excessive financial wealth concentrated in a small number of hands.
  • It’s a significant yet often overlooked problem.
  • The ‘real economy’ consists of businesses producing goods and services, with money circulating through purchases and wages.
  • Financial assets include stocks, bonds, real estate, and debt, and these have grown disproportionately compared to the real economy.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

The destruction of American jobs over the last few decades and the erosion in their quality were accelerated by another big shift encouraged by neoliberal policies, what experts Call financialization. It's a vague, technical-sounding word, but Marjorie Kelly is a former business journalist turned economic reformer and author. She's a distinguished senior fellow at the Democracy Collaborative.

Speaker 2

Financialization, I call it the problem we're not talking about yet. It is as big as climate change and yet it's far more invisible.

Speaker 1

Wait, as big as climate change?

Speaker 2

And what it means is there's too much financial wealth in the system in too few hands.

Speaker 1

Let's unpack this. What does Marjorie mean by financial wealth or financial assets and how can there be too much of them? On one hand she says there's the real economy. Businesses produce goods and services, people hand over money to buy that stuff, and much of that money flows back around in the paychecks of workers. And traditionally, some of the company's profits also recirculate as investments in more production and more hiring. On the other hand, financial assets, stocks and bonds, real estate, and debt.

[37:35] Financialization of the Economy

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Financialization of the Economy

  • The decline of American jobs and their quality was worsened by the financialization of the economy.
  • This was encouraged by neoliberal policies.
  • Marjorie Kelly, a business journalist and economic reformer, discusses this topic.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

The destruction of American jobs over the last few decades and the erosion in their quality were accelerated by another big shift encouraged by neoliberal policies, what experts Call financialization. It's a vague, technical-sounding

[39:38] Financialization: The Invisible Problem

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (38:05 - 39:43)

Financialization: The Invisible Problem

  • Marjorie Kelly argues that financialization, the excessive accumulation of financial wealth in few hands, is a major societal issue, comparable to climate change, but less discussed.
  • This wealth doesn’t appear from nowhere; it is extracted from people, the planet, and society.
  • Kelly emphasizes the importance of questioning the origin of billionaires’ wealth, challenging the trickle-down theory and arguing the flow operates in reverse.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

What it means is there's too much financial wealth in the system in too few hands.

Speaker 1

Let's unpack this. What does Marjorie mean by financial wealth or financial assets and how can there be too much of them? On one hand she says there's the real economy. Businesses produce goods and services, people hand over money to buy that stuff, and much of that money flows back around in the paychecks of workers. And traditionally, some of the company's profits also recirculate as investments in more production and more hiring. On the other hand, financial assets, stocks and bonds, real estate, and debt. Your debts and mine are assets on someone else's ledger. In recent decades, these financial assets have ballooned in comparison with the real economy. In the 1950s, when Marjorie Kelly was a small kid, total financial assets in the U.S. Were roughly equal to the nation's gross domestic product. Now, they're five times GDP. Who owns these assets? Overwhelmingly, rich folks.

Speaker 2

People know that billionaires have all the wealth, and there's a lot of talk about how much wealth is going to billionaires. But what we don't talk enough about is, where does that wealth come from? That wealth comes from extracting from everyone else, from people and planet and society.

[42:58] Corporations as Financial Playthings

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Corporations as Financial Playthings

  • Oren Cass argues that over the last 40 years, corporations have shifted from being locally rooted entities with owners and managers accountable to their communities, workers, and customers to becoming financial playthings.
  • This transformation is attributed to the rise of technology and sophisticated financial practices, such as leveraged buyouts.
  • Cass highlights how these corporations prioritize profit maximization above all other obligations.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

He says, one damaging result of the last 40 years is a change in the nature and the purpose of the typical corporation.

Speaker 3

A corporation, even hundreds of years after Adam Smith, would typically be something bound to a particular place with identifiable owners and managers who were legally but also personally Accountable to their communities, to their workers, to their suppliers, to their customers, and who certainly were doing what they were doing because they wanted to generate a profit. But also in most cases had considerations in mind beyond purely profit. Certainly, most people would have said that they had obligations that went beyond purely profit. As technology and the ever more sophisticated role of finance has moved into the corporation, the corporation a legal entity has become from the perspective of its owners and its managers A, in a sense, a financial plaything.

Speaker 1

A plaything for banks and investment funds and for private equity firms doing leveraged buyouts.

[45:27] Modern “Investment” Is Just Asset Flipping

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Modern “Investment” Is Just Asset Flipping

  • Modern investment banking often doesn’t involve deploying capital for new ventures like it used to.
  • Instead, it focuses on acquiring existing assets and manipulating them to generate slightly more capital.
  • This practice is often referred to as asset flipping and is exemplified by the private equity industry.
  • Private equity firms acquire companies, often through leveraged buyouts, with the goal of increasing profitability or selling off assets for short-term gains.
  • This can have detrimental consequences, as illustrated by the Toys R Us bankruptcy, a high-profile casualty of a private equity deal.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

And of course, that's not what investment banks or Wall Street for the most part do today. They collect capital and use it to buy up piles of existing assets in the assumption that they can convert those assets into simply, you know, slightly more capital than they started With. And so most of what we call investment isn't actually investment at all. It's turning piles of assets around in circles.

Speaker 1

An important and hugely damaging example of this, according to many critics, the private equity industry, which boomed starting in the 1980s thanks to changes in regulations and The tax code. Today, the biggest private equity firms, Carlisle, KKR, BlackRock, are effectively some of the nation's largest employers through the companies they own, even though most people Have never heard of them. These firms gather money from rich individuals and institutional investors, like pension funds, mutual funds, and university endowments. The firms then go in search of companies they believe could be more profitable than they are, or that they can squeeze for short-term profits by selling off their assets. Private equity takes control of these companies, often through leveraged buyouts, meaning they use the money they've raised to leverage the borrowing

[44:18] Modern “Investment” Is Not Investment

🎧 Play snip - 22sec️ (44:05 - 44:28)

Modern “Investment” Is Not Investment

  • Much of what’s called “investment” today isn’t actually investment.
  • Instead of deploying capital to create new things, like dams or railways, it’s used to buy existing assets.
  • The goal is to convert those assets into slightly more capital than initially invested, essentially just shuffling assets around.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 3

They collect capital and use it to buy up piles of existing assets in the assumption that they can convert those assets into simply, you know, slightly more capital than they started With. And so most of what we call investment isn't actually investment at all. It's turning piles of assets around in circles.

[47:46] Private Equity’s Shift to Social Industries

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Private Equity’s Shift to Social Industries

  • Private equity firms are increasingly investing in social industries like elder care and veterinary services.
  • These industries traditionally prioritized a balance of profit and social obligations.
  • Private equity aims to convert the embedded social value into profit for investors, potentially at the expense of customer care and community benefit.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

Always fascinated by which industries private equity tends to be getting into these days. So, you know, once upon a time, private equity would go get into the corrugated metal roofing industry or whatever, right? They were out there finding all these obscure undervalued bargains. More and more what you see private equity getting into are these very intensively social industries, elder care, you know, veterinary services. And every time I see another example of this kind of thing, what I see as happening is that they essentially found industries that are not profit maximizing. We're part of the premise of operating this industry is you do need to turn a profit, but you also have some real obligations to your customers, to the community that go beyond just maximizing Your profit. And the private equity firm is saying, well, what if we just converted that into profit? What if we took all of the embedded social value that the community is benefiting from, and instead extracted it and gave it to rich people?

Speaker 1

Under private equity

[52:52] Inequality Underestimation

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (51:36 - 52:54)

Inequality Underestimation

  • Research indicates that people significantly underestimate the extent of wealth inequality in the US.
  • For example, the top 0.1% of Americans (over 100,000 families) possess about one-fifth of the nation’s wealth.
  • Meanwhile, the bottom 90% (nearly 300 million people) own approximately one-fourth of the total wealth.
  • This stark disparity, highlighted by politicians like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, demonstrates a substantial wealth gap.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Fact, there's research showing that people seriously underestimate the level of inequality in the United States. We've mentioned some numbers on inequality here, but it's so important. I think we should just share a few more of these mind-boggling statistics. In Episode One, we heard what Bernie Sanders said, speaking during his 2016 presidential campaign. Something profoundly wrong in our country when the top one tenth of one percent, not one percent, one tenth of one percent owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent. That is immoral.

Speaker 2

But he wasn't. The nonpartisan fact-checking organization PolitiFact looked into that exact claim when Elizabeth Warren made it and found it mostly true. That's right.

Speaker 1

The source of that claim by Warren and Sanders was a pair of economists at Stanford and UC Berkeley. Estimated that the richest 0.1% of Americans, 100,000 plus families, owned one-fifth of the nation's wealth. And the bottom 90% of us, almost

[53:29] Wealth Inequality

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (51:55 - 53:39)

Wealth Inequality

  • The top 0.1% of Americans own nearly as much wealth as the bottom 90%.
  • This disparity was highlighted by Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren during their presidential campaigns and verified by fact-checkers.
  • Globally, the wealth of the world’s billionaires roughly equals that of the poorest 60% of the population, a figure that worsened during the pandemic.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

In Episode One, we heard what Bernie Sanders said, speaking during his 2016 presidential campaign. Something profoundly wrong in our country when the top one tenth of one percent, not one percent, one tenth of one percent owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent. That is immoral.

Speaker 2

But he wasn't. The nonpartisan fact-checking organization PolitiFact looked into that exact claim when Elizabeth Warren made it and found it mostly true. That's right.

Speaker 1

The source of that claim by Warren and Sanders was a pair of economists at Stanford and UC Berkeley. Estimated that the richest 0.1% of Americans, 100,000 plus families, owned one-fifth of the nation's wealth. And the bottom 90% of us, almost 300 million people, owned more, but not that much more, about one-fourth of the total. So 25% compared to 20%. So when Warren or Sanders said the 0.1% own almost as much as the bottom 90%, close enough.

Speaker 2

One more way to slice it? Let's take a global view. In 2020, the world's billionaires, that's roughly 2,100 people, had as much wealth as the poorest 60% of humanity, 4.5 billion people. And that was true, according to Oxfam International, before the 10 richest people on Earth doubled their wealth during the pandemic.

[55:20] Wealth Disparity

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (53:53 - 55:21)

Wealth Disparity

  • While the overall economy has grown, the distribution of wealth has become increasingly skewed towards the rich.
  • Instead of higher wages for workers, a larger share of wealth generated by increased productivity is being converted into assets held by the wealthy through profits and stock appreciation.
  • Tax cuts over the past 40 years, particularly on high incomes and investments (the primary income source for the very rich), have exacerbated wealth disparity.
  • A 2020 RAND Corporation study estimated that if income distribution had remained consistent with the mid-40s to 1970s, the bottom 90% would have accumulated 1,100 per worker monthly.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

Yes, and here's what folks like Marjorie Kelly are saying. The overall size of the economy has continued to grow at a pretty steady clip. The pie keeps getting bigger. But as workers and companies get more and more productive, with the help of technology, a huge share of the wealth is being siphoned off and turned into assets held by the rich.

Speaker 1

What does this really mean? Instead of going into the bank accounts of millions of regular working people through higher pay, it's showing up instead as profit on the corporate ledger, raises the value of stocks In the portfolios of the mostly wealthy people who own most of the stocks. And at the same time, rich folks get to keep more of their wealth, thanks to the big tax cuts over the last 40 years, especially cuts on the highest incomes and on investment income, which Is the main source of income for the very wealthiest people.

Speaker 2

Okay, listen to this. In a study published in 2020 by the RAND Corporation, a pair of economists set out to measure how much more wealth people in the bottom 90% of the US population would have accumulated Over the last 40 years if things had been distributed the old way, the way they were during those post-war decades from the 40s to the 70s. Their estimate? 50 trillion dollars.

[54:23] Wealth Siphoning

🎧 Play snip - 29sec️ (53:53 - 54:23)

Wealth Siphoning

  • Despite economic growth and increased productivity, wealth distribution is highly skewed.
  • Instead of higher wages for workers, profits boost corporate value and stock portfolios, primarily benefiting the wealthy.
  • Tax cuts over the past four decades have further exacerbated wealth concentration among the rich.
  • The rich are getting richer while worker wages stagnate, even though overall productivity and profits increase.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

Yes, and here's what folks like Marjorie Kelly are saying. The overall size of the economy has continued to grow at a pretty steady clip. The pie keeps getting bigger. But as workers and companies get more and more productive, with the help of technology, a huge share of the wealth is being siphoned off and turned into assets held by the rich.

Speaker 1

What does this really mean? Instead of going into the bank accounts of millions of regular working people through higher pay,

Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (w/ Will from About Face)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by Will, a US Army veteran and member of the organization About Face: Veterans Against the War , to discuss the 2016 Star Wars standalone movie Rogue One: A Star Wars Story . 
>
> The group discusses the film’s themes around imperialism, war, revolution, radicalism, and what it means to compromise one’s morals for the sake of the “greater good.” They also ask the important question: what the hell was Forest Whitaker thinking?
>
>
> About Face: Veterans Against the War
>
> For next week’s movie, we’ll be watching the 1989 “Weird Al” Yankovic comedy UHF .
>
> 🤝 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PATREON 🤝
>
> www.patreon.com/movies_vs_capitalism
>
> MVC donates its ad space to progressive or leftist causes and organizations. If you’re interested in promoting your work, email us at [email protected].
>
> Artwork by Rufus Paisley | Theme song by JustBen
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  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Snips

[15:37] American Culture: Not Mediocrity, But Consumerism

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (14:14 - 15:32)

American Culture: Not Mediocrity, But Consumerism

  • Frank disagrees with the idea that American culture promotes mediocrity.
  • He feels that from a young age, Americans are instilled with the belief that hard work is essential for success.
  • Rivka agrees, suggesting that American culture’s focus is not on mediocrity but rather on consumerism, obsession with appearance, and other related factors.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Frank Capello

It's wild and it very self-selecting in the i mean i guess he was like taking an aim at like children's programming although he did throw whiplash in there, because I find this whole argument Incorrect on its face. I don't think our American culture promotes mediocrity. If anything, I feel like from age five, I had a beaten into my head that I'm going to have to work very, very hard at every, very, every single stage of my life in order to achieve the things That I need to achieve in order to be a successful, productive human part of this American society. Like, I felt like I knew from a very early age, like, oh, if I drop the ball, I'll be fucked here.

Rivka Rivera

Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. It's not the mediocrity. I think it's like, it's not mediocrity. It's consumerism. Maybe it's obsession with looks. It's like all of, but like, that goes back to consumerism or it's like those kind of things. But it's not mediocrity. And certainly the solution, like you said, is not like intense abuse from a figure. You know, it's not turning up the heat.

Frank Capello

No, it's no.

Rivka Rivera

And it's more things like, again, this is spoken more in depth about on other podcasts, including the Bad Faith one. But like, it's the fact that, americans are have so much debt on their freaking like how expensive it is to go to school here like all of these other factors health care like

[37:01] Rogue One Parallels with Modern Warfare

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Rogue One Parallels with Modern Warfare

  • Will believes “Rogue One” is a commentary on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, with the Empire representing the U.S. military.
  • He points to the Death Star’s destruction of desert people from a safe distance as a parallel to U.S. military actions.
  • He also notes the similarity between Chirrut Îmwe’s chant and the Arabic phrase “Allahu Akbar,” suggesting a deliberate connection between the rebels and those the U.S. fought in Afghanistan.
  • Frank Capello agrees and adds that while George Lucas’ original “Star Wars” was meant as a critique of the Vietnam War, “Rogue One” blends that with Nazi Germany influences.
  • Will feels the original trilogy was more Nazi-coded but “Rogue One” links it to the U.S. military.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Will

Series. So the other thing I really like about this movie is I cannot be convinced that this movie is not about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And the Empire is the.S. Military. When I saw this movie and I'm watching the Death Star blowing up desert people from safety and security a million miles away with zero consequences, I was like, oh, they're saying something Here. Right? When I don't know if we're jumping if i'm jumping to the end or anything but jump you can jump around when um uh chiru chirut sorry i'm terrible with names but when chiru is um saying at the Uh end i'm one with the force and the forces with me i'm one with the force with the force with me that's allah akbara allah akbara Allah Akbar. They were the people that we were fighting in Afghanistan and they made them the hero. You can't do that in a Hollywood movie without pretending it's Star Wars. Wow.

Frank Capello

I love everything that you just laid out. Yeah, this is also my favorite star wars movie uh it's up there it's i mean it's like this or empire but uh i do i i love this movie a lot and i everything you're saying about specifically About the empire being the united states well we know that because that was george lucas's original intention with the first star wars it was a you know a pseudo critique on the war in Vietnam.

Will

It was, but he pulled so many influences for the original movies from Nazi Germany that I've always felt it was more Nazi coded than US,

[37:44] Rogue One: Critique of US Imperialism

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (37:00 - 37:50)

Rogue One: Critique of US Imperialism

  • While the original Star Wars drew inspiration from Nazi Germany, ‘Rogue One’ blends those influences with clear parallels to the US military’s actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.
  • The Death Star’s destruction of desert planets from afar mirrors the US’s remote warfare, with devastating consequences for non-white populations.
  • Jedha, a desert planet featuring a predominantly non-white cast, symbolizes Eastern countries targeted by Western imperialism for resource extraction, as highlighted by the kyber crystals.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Will

It was, but he pulled so many influences for the original movies from Nazi Germany that I've always felt it was more Nazi coded than US, but this one really merges the two.

Frank Capello

It totally does. And you saying, especially like the desert, like the hubs of rebellion being based on these desert planets. In this movie, it's not Tatooine, it's Jedha, or the city of Jedha, featuring a cast, a primary cast that is pretty much all non white, except for Felicity Jones, really evokes the sense That like you're saying, these are white Western imperial forces coming to some Eastern country, some non-white country, and using their death machine,

[42:29] Rebellions Often Lack a Vision for the Future

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Rebellions Often Lack a Vision for the Future

  • Focusing solely on opposing something without a clear vision for the future can be detrimental.
  • Often, rebellions get caught up in defining their politics by what they’re against, forgetting to envision solutions.
  • Without a plan for after gaining power, the new regime often replicates the old power structures and oppression.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Rivka Rivera

No, thanks for that. That's, that's helpful to hear even that I'm that I was feeling right about something that I'm like, that's I don't feel like this is going to necessarily go in the right direction. But it's a great it's it's a great thing to view and have critique on because it's a reminder that like, I think so often we get, and I'll speak for myself, you can get so caught up in defining Your politics by what you're against and by the antithesis of. I mean, this is an anti-capitalist podcast, but within that means you have to find, so what is the solution? Is it socialism, Marxism? Like, what does it actually look like? And when the organizing and when the rebellion becomes so, as they have to in this particular case, but like when that all of the organizing is going to just being against something, Then it makes sense, like you said, as soon as they capture it and there's no plan. And there's there's not a sense of like, what do we what's the new horizon? What do we do when we retain power? It just becomes a new a new version of power and oppression, because that is all that there that is known so if you take it it's going to replace it in that similar way yeah yeah yeah there's

Frank Capello

Going to be a terrible vacuum all over the place that is one of my favorite things about this movie and i remember the first time watching it and being like damn i don't think i've ever seen This in a star wars movie is showing from the rebellion's perspective the like you said will like how brutalized people end up brutalizing people the moral compromises that the rebellion Is making in

[01:14:15] Unsung Heroes of Revolutions

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:13:50 - 01:14:24)

Unsung Heroes of Revolutions

  • Revolutions are built upon the efforts of countless individuals at all levels.
  • Many participants in these struggles remain unnamed and unrecognized by history.
  • ‘Rogue One’ emphasizes this by depicting characters who sacrifice themselves for the cause, foreshadowing a line in ‘A New Hope’ about Bothan spies dying to deliver plans.
  • This highlights the importance of acknowledging the integral role every person plays, even those whose sacrifices go unnoticed.
  • Every individual contributes to the larger movement.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Frank Capello

Yeah. And I think it's just, you know, watching it now is just a reminder that these movements, these struggles, these revolutions, whatever you want to call them, are the culmination of Many, many, many, many different people on all different levels organizing and fighting in their own way. And so many of the people who are a part of these struggles are never going to be named, they're never going to be written down in the annals of history, will never know, you know, whatever Sacrifices that they made.

[01:19:45] Nazi Misrepresentation in Media

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:18:15 - 01:19:44)

Nazi Misrepresentation in Media

  • Common portrayals of Nazis in Hollywood reduce them to either unintelligent brutes or aloof, weak figures.
  • This misrepresents the reality of Nazi soldiers, who were ordinary people motivated by propaganda and fear for their families.
  • These soldiers were led to believe that their actions, however horrific, were necessary to protect their loved ones.
  • This simplification overlooks the complex psychological manipulation at play and prevents a deeper understanding of the dangers of such propaganda.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Will

It wasn't an accident. He thought it was funny if the storm troopers had a genetic predisposition to hit their heads. So that means that the storm troopers that they're fighting in this movie are the same clones that were in the ends of the last trilogy. Now the clones are bred for fighting. They are locked. They eat, sleep, fight. They, their purpose was to kill the Jedi without malice. It was just following an order. Right. And being called a storm trooper that is heavily, heavily Nazi coded. Right. And throughout all of Hollywood, Nazis are always like smarmy, effeminate, for lack of a better word, but just these, uh, just aloof, petite little guys, or they're giant hulking, Monstrous dudes that just don't think at all. They just follow orders and they're terrible and awful. And that's not what the Nazis were. The Nazis were guys. They were just people. They were people that had been told all their lives that the Jews were going to hurt their kids. So they had to go out there and hurt the Jews first. They wanted their kids to have food on the table. They wanted to go home and have a comfortable place to sleep at night. They were just guys. Fact, the Nazis that were doing the killing early in, um, uh, the Holocaust, they, they couldn't do it for very long before they started, uh, punching their own tickets because people Aren't supposed to just murder. We're not built for that. We are more

S7 E11: Better Capitalism?

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Episode metadata

Show notes > In the first of two episodes looking at responses to capitalism’s failings, we explore reforms aimed at making the current economic system more humane, fair, effective, and sustainable. 
> By John Biewen with co-host Ellen McGirt. Interviews with Lutz Schwenke, Jordi Llatje i Espinal, Marjorie Kelly, Oren Cass, Jayati Ghosh, John Fullerton, and Rick Alexander. Story editor: Loretta Williams. Music by Michelle Osis, Lilli Haydn, Chris Westlake, Alex Symcox, and Goodnight, Lucas. Music consulting by Joe Augustine of Narrative Music. 
> "Capitalism” is a production of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University, in partnership with Imperative 21. 
>
>
> Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices
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Snips

[11:14] Two Thirds: Ethical Fashion Example

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (09:39 - 11:16)

Two Thirds: Ethical Fashion Example

  • Lutz Schwenka founded Two Thirds, a sustainable clothing brand, in 2010 as an ethical alternative within the fashion industry.
  • Two Thirds manufactures in Spain and Portugal, adhering to EU wage and environmental standards.
  • Their Portuguese workers earn around 1,000 euros monthly, which offers a decent living standard given the lower cost of living.
  • The company exclusively utilizes organic and recycled cotton, as well as alternative materials like hemp and linen.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Biewen

Says the Portuguese workers who make his company's clothes start at about 1,000 euros a month, 10 times the typical pay in India or Bangladesh. It's only $1,100, but the cost of living in Portugal is barely half what it is in the United States or a big Spanish city.

Lutz Schwenke

The areas where it's produced in north of Portugal, it's quite impressive. I mean, if you go here into Barcelona and you order with milk, you pay 253 euros, whereas you go there into the villages and I ended up paying 90 cents for a coffee.

John Biewen

Those European garment factories also have to meet EU environmental standards, unlike the plants in parts of Asia, where environmentalists have captured awful images for decades.

Lutz Schwenke

I don't want to name a country, but you have this factory in Country X, and they dye the product, and there's a river just behind, and the river has the same color of the day than the clothing That they produce inside, and there's still a lot more of that that you think. Two-thirds doesn't use any conventional cotton grown with pesticides.

John Biewen

It uses organic and recycled cotton and other fabrics like hemp and linen. But the most unusual business practice that Lutz and his company adopted is meant to address yet another fashion industry sin, waste. It's estimated that globally, humans are hauling clothing to landfills and incinerators at the rate of one garbage truck every second,

[11:47] European Garment Factories and Environmental Standards

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (10:18 - 11:52)

European Garment Factories and Environmental Standards

  • Lutz Schwenke founded Two Thirds, a sustainable clothing brand, in 2010.
  • Unlike many Asian factories, European garment factories, particularly those in Portugal used by Two Thirds, must adhere to EU environmental standards.
  • Schwenke points out a stark contrast where factories in some unnamed countries pollute rivers with dyes, matching the color of the clothes they produce, highlighting lax environmental regulations.
  • Two Thirds uses organic and recycled cotton and other sustainable fabrics like hemp and linen, avoiding pesticide-laden conventional cotton.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Biewen

European garment factories also have to meet EU environmental standards, unlike the plants in parts of Asia, where environmentalists have captured awful images for decades.

Lutz Schwenke

I don't want to name a country, but you have this factory in Country X, and they dye the product, and there's a river just behind, and the river has the same color of the day than the clothing That they produce inside, and there's still a lot more of that that you think. Two-thirds doesn't use any conventional cotton grown with pesticides.

John Biewen

It uses organic and recycled cotton and other fabrics like hemp and linen. But the most unusual business practice that Lutz and his company adopted is meant to address yet another fashion industry sin, waste. It's estimated that globally, humans are hauling clothing to landfills and incinerators at the rate of one garbage truck every second, 24-7. It's crazy.

Lutz Schwenke

It's, I mean, it's a system of total overproduction.

John Biewen

The fast fashion industry has doubled production since 2000, making mountains of cheap, low-quality garments designed to be worn just a few times. And sure enough, people are buying more clothes than ever and wearing those garments fewer times before tossing them. In part because of this excessive production, the clothing industry produces more greenhouse gases than air travel and global shipping combined. There's so much overproduction that a staggering

[22:51] Profit Making, Not Maximizing

🎧 Play snip - 12sec️ (22:45 - 22:58)

Profit Making, Not Maximizing

  • Marjorie Kelly argues against profit maximization as the primary goal of companies.
  • She suggests companies should be profit-making, ensuring their survival and sustainability.
  • However, they shouldn’t prioritize maximizing profits above all else, as this can lead to detrimental consequences.

📚 Transcript

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John Biewen

Argues that a huge amount of damage comes from the idea that profits, the gains that go to owners and shareholders, must be maximized. That article of faith needs to

[24:28] Profit Making, Not Maximizing

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (22:56 - 24:28)

Profit Making, Not Maximizing

  • Aim for companies to be profit-making, but not profit-maximizing.
  • Profit is essential for survival, but maximizing it often leads to harmful practices.
  • It is not necessary to extract the most possible at all times from a situation or a company, some might argue it’s better to extract less.
  • There have always been business people content with making enough profit, not the maximum possible.
  • Large-scale change requires more than just encouraging ethical choices; systemic changes and new rules are needed to shift the existing system.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Biewen

Article of faith needs to go away, she says.

Ellen McGirt

What I say is that we need companies that are profit-making, but not profit-maximizing. And there's all the difference in the world is in there. You need a profit just to stay alive, right? You need more money coming in than going out. That's kind of a rule of life in the economy. But maximizing profits, buying newspapers and squeezing them to death until they lie on the floor and die, no, that isn't necessary. We don't need to maximize profits.

John Biewen

And that's what we need to step away from. There are and always have been business people in the profit-making world who were happy to make enough and not necessarily the most profit possible. But a lot of observers, including some who work in business, say large-scale change will never happen by merely encouraging that choice as a matter of values or virtue. Many argue the capitalist system needs a good, strong push. And that means changing some rules. Here's one way to look at the idea of a better capitalism. What if the free market consistently worked as advertised by its biggest

[25:31] Peter Thiel on Competition

🎧 Play snip - 19sec️ (25:11 - 25:31)

Peter Thiel on Competition

  • If founding a company, aim for monopoly and avoid competition.
  • Competition forces you to focus on incremental improvements and small margins, preventing you from building something truly valuable.
  • Instead of competing in crowded markets, create new ones where you can dominate.

📚 Transcript

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Jordi Llatje i Espinal

Speaker is Peter Thiel. Peter was the founder of PayPal and Palantir and Founders Fund and has invested in most of the tech companies in Silicon Valley.

John Biewen

Thiel steps in front of the class and comes right out with his central piece of advice, an idea he says he's completely obsessed with.

[26:23] Aim for Monopoly

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (25:22 - 26:23)

Aim for Monopoly

  • Peter Thiel’s central piece of advice to startup founders is to always aim for a monopoly and avoid competition.
  • He believes that competition is for losers.
  • Thiel cites big tech companies like Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Amazon as examples of successful monopolies, highlighting their high profit margins and accumulated cash.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Biewen

Steps in front of the class and comes right out with his central piece of advice, an idea he says he's completely obsessed with.

Jordi Llatje i Espinal

If you're starting a company, if you're the founder, entrepreneur, starting a company, you always want to aim for monopoly. And you want to always avoid competition. And so, hence, competition is for losers, something we'll be talking about today.

John Biewen

Teal, who is known these days as a mentor and patron to J.D. Vance, went on to offer some familiar examples of companies that are nailing it, in his view.

Jordi Llatje i Espinal

If you look at sort of the, some of the big tech companies, Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, they've just been building up cash for year after year. And you have these incredibly high profit margins. And I would say that one of the reasons the tech industry in the US has been so successful financially is because it's prone to creating all these monopoly like businesses.

[27:24] Peter Thiel’s Competition is for Losers

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (25:22 - 27:32)

Peter Thiel’s Competition is for Losers

  • Peter Thiel, founder of PayPal and Palantir, advises aspiring entrepreneurs to aim for monopolies and avoid competition.
  • He believes that competition is for losers and that successful tech companies like Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Amazon have thrived by establishing monopoly-like businesses.
  • These monopolies allow companies to accumulate vast amounts of cash due to high-profit margins.
  • Adam Smith, a proponent of competition, would have likely opposed such monopolies due to their potential for rent-seeking and price gouging.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Biewen

Steps in front of the class and comes right out with his central piece of advice, an idea he says he's completely obsessed with.

Jordi Llatje i Espinal

If you're starting a company, if you're the founder, entrepreneur, starting a company, you always want to aim for monopoly. And you want to always avoid competition. And so, hence, competition is for losers, something we'll be talking about today.

John Biewen

Teal, who is known these days as a mentor and patron to J.D. Vance, went on to offer some familiar examples of companies that are nailing it, in his view.

Jordi Llatje i Espinal

If you look at sort of the, some of the big tech companies, Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, they've just been building up cash for year after year. And you have these incredibly high profit margins. And I would say that one of the reasons the tech industry in the US has been so successful financially is because it's prone to creating all these monopoly like businesses. And it's reflected by the fact that these companies just accumulate so much cash, they don't even know what to do with it beyond a certain point.

John Biewen

The leaders of those tech giants probably weren't thrilled by Thiel's comment, since they've all been sued for monopolistic practices by the U.S. And European governments, along with Facebook, which Thiel neglected to mention. Business people don't usually put it as bluntly as Thiel did, but it is standard practice in the business world and completely rational for someone looking to invest or start a company To choose an industry with few or no competitors. Adam Smith, back there in the 18th century, could not have imagined Google, Facebook, or Amazon. But he did know a monopoly when he saw one, and he raged against the rent seeking, the price gouging, that the monopolists of his time engaged in. This was Smith's obsession. Markets, he said, should be managed intelligently to maximize competition in every way. Competition between companies to win customers.

[28:00] Peter Thiel on Monopolies

🎧 Play snip - 3min️ (25:31 - 28:05)

Peter Thiel on Monopolies

  • Peter Thiel advises aspiring entrepreneurs to aim for monopolies and avoid competition.
  • He believes that competition is for losers and that successful tech companies like Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Amazon have thrived by establishing monopoly-like businesses.
  • Thiel points out that these companies accumulate vast amounts of cash due to their market dominance, although they have faced antitrust lawsuits.
  • While Thiel’s perspective is blunt, seeking industries with limited competition is common practice, contrasting with Adam Smith’s emphasis on maximizing competition to benefit consumers and workers.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Jordi Llatje i Espinal

You're starting a company, if you're the founder, entrepreneur, starting a company, you always want to aim for monopoly. And you want to always avoid competition. And so, hence, competition is for losers, something we'll be talking about today.

John Biewen

Teal, who is known these days as a mentor and patron to J.D. Vance, went on to offer some familiar examples of companies that are nailing it, in his view.

Jordi Llatje i Espinal

If you look at sort of the, some of the big tech companies, Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, they've just been building up cash for year after year. And you have these incredibly high profit margins. And I would say that one of the reasons the tech industry in the US has been so successful financially is because it's prone to creating all these monopoly like businesses. And it's reflected by the fact that these companies just accumulate so much cash, they don't even know what to do with it beyond a certain point.

John Biewen

The leaders of those tech giants probably weren't thrilled by Thiel's comment, since they've all been sued for monopolistic practices by the U.S. And European governments, along with Facebook, which Thiel neglected to mention. Business people don't usually put it as bluntly as Thiel did, but it is standard practice in the business world and completely rational for someone looking to invest or start a company To choose an industry with few or no competitors. Adam Smith, back there in the 18th century, could not have imagined Google, Facebook, or Amazon. But he did know a monopoly when he saw one, and he raged against the rent seeking, the price gouging, that the monopolists of his time engaged in. This was Smith's obsession. Markets, he said, should be managed intelligently to maximize competition in every way. Competition between companies to win customers. And as we heard back in episode four, he wanted workers to have leverage too so employers would have to compete for their labor, pushing up wages. In one more famous passage from The Wealth of Nations, Smith laments another way in which business people conspire to avoid competition, by colluding with one another.

Lutz Schwenke

People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or

[28:25] Promoting Competition in Capitalism

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (27:20 - 28:27)

Promoting Competition in Capitalism

  • Encourage competition between companies to benefit consumers.
  • Empower workers so employers have to compete for labor, raising wages.
  • Implement laws and regulations to level the playing field.
  • Strengthen environmental protections and enforce them robustly.
  • Increase taxes on corporations and the wealthy to fund public services.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Biewen

Was Smith's obsession. Markets, he said, should be managed intelligently to maximize competition in every way. Competition between companies to win customers. And as we heard back in episode four, he wanted workers to have leverage too so employers would have to compete for their labor, pushing up wages. In one more famous passage from The Wealth of Nations, Smith laments another way in which business people conspire to avoid competition, by colluding with one another.

Lutz Schwenke

People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.

John Biewen

For people who believe in capitalism but want it to work better for more people, examples like these can lead to one kind of response. Laws and regulations, thoughtfully designed to level the playing field so markets do in fact bring good things to lots of people.

[29:30] Better Capitalism Through Regulation

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (28:09 - 29:30)

Better Capitalism Through Regulation

  • For proponents of a better-functioning capitalist system, regulations are key.
  • These could include bolstering labor unions, implementing stricter environmental protections, and increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy.
  • Such measures aim to create a more level playing field and distribute wealth more equitably.
  • Additionally, curbing financialization practices like stock buybacks, which prioritize shareholders over workers and productive investments, is crucial for a more balanced and sustainable economic model.

📚 Transcript

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John Biewen

Who believe in capitalism but want it to work better for more people, examples like these can lead to one kind of response. Laws and regulations, thoughtfully designed to level the playing field so markets do in fact bring good things to lots of people. This could mean a return to what historian Brad DeLong called the arsenal of social democracy. Empowered labor unions, stronger environmental protections with robust enforcement, higher taxes on corporations and the wealthy, both to raise revenue for public projects and To reduce the astronomical wealth gap between the richest people and the rest of us. Getting to a better capitalism could also mean reining in what many consider the excesses of financialization. Those maneuvers by investors and corporations to make money, as Orrin Kass puts it, by turning financial assets in circles.

Jordi Llatje i Espinal

Yeah, stock buybacks are a fascinating case study in all of this.

John Biewen

Of the conservative group American Compass. When corporations haul in profits they don't know what to do with, they increasingly just buy up more of their own stock

[31:29] Stock Buybacks: Unproductive Capital

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Stock Buybacks: Unproductive Capital

  • Stock buybacks are when companies use profits to buy back their own shares, instead of investing in growth or raising worker pay.
  • Market fundamentalists argue that this returns capital to investors who can then invest it more productively elsewhere.
  • However, there’s no evidence this happens, and the capital often ends up in index funds, not productive investments.
  • This removes capital from the productive economy and puts it back into financial markets where it might not contribute to anything productive.
  • Stock buybacks became legal in 1982 and reached over $1 trillion in 2022 for S&P 500 companies.

📚 Transcript

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Jordi Llatje i Espinal

When you say, you know, we're concerned about these stock buybacks, it seems to be companies disgorging massive amounts of capital instead of investing it. The response from what I would call the market fundamentalists, who believe markets can do no wrong regardless of what rules there are, or especially if there are no rules, what they Will say is, no, no, no, this is good. The company is returning the capital because they can't think of as good a use for it as someone else will. So now the people who receive the capital as investors will put it into other companies that will do more and better investment. And this is how we become more productive.

John Biewen

He says the trouble is there's no evidence that this is actually what happens.

Jordi Llatje i Espinal

When you think about the people who actually receive the proceeds of stock buybacks, they're not people out there looking for places to make real investments that deploy productive Capital. They're people who are going to put it into their index funds, and off we go, spinning up more assets in circles. And so the net effect is actually to disgorge capital out of the productive economy, away from corporations that might actually deploy it, and back into the financial market where It may not do anything productive at all.

John Biewen

Stock buybacks became legal during the Reagan administration in 1982. The practice has grown more and more common, especially these days as corporate profits soar to record levels. In 2022, companies in the S&P 500 did more than $1 trillion in stock buybacks for the first time.

[33:32] Taxing Corporate Profits and Financial Transactions

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (32:01 - 33:41)

Taxing Corporate Profits and Financial Transactions

  • One proposed strategy to better utilize corporate profits involves increasing taxes on them.
  • The 2017 tax cuts significantly reduced the corporate tax rate, and further reductions have been suggested.
  • Conversely, some advocate for raising the corporate tax rate.
  • John Fullerton suggests a tax on financial transactions to curb unproductive use of capital in esoteric financial instruments.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Biewen

2017 tax cuts under Trump slashed the corporate rate from 35 percent to 21 percent. Trump has proposed cutting it further to 15 percent. Kamala Harris says she'll push Congress to raise the corporate rate to 28 percent. As dry as it can be to talk about, the investment of capital and the rules and guardrails around that activity have a powerful influence on what happens in the world. Remember John Fullerton in episode one talking about his epiphany a couple decades ago, that bankers like him were, in important ways, doing destructive work. I then sort of looked in the mirror and realized it was young kids like me who think they're so smart, who are actually driving, because finance really drives the economy.

Lutz Schwenke

It's what the economy is in service to financial capital in more ways than we realize.

John Biewen

By this point in our season, it should be clear what John's talking about. The people who control those mountains of capital really are the deciders. Should I spend this capital to build affordable housing and address that critical shortage, or put it into a private equity firm that's buying up homes and flipping them for a quick Profit? Should I invest my capital in any traditional sense, in the real economy, towards production of any actual product or service, which would almost certainly create jobs, or just put It into some esoteric financial instrument that'll kick out a few cents on the dollar? John

[37:44] B Corp in Delaware

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B Corp in Delaware

  • Rick Alexander, a corporate lawyer in Delaware, initially dismissed the B Corp movement as something only small companies like Ben & Jerry’s would be interested in.
  • Delaware, where many large corporations are incorporated, seemed an unlikely place for B Corps to thrive.
  • However, after researching B Corps and stakeholder capitalism, Alexander changed his perspective.
  • He was particularly influenced by Lynn Stout’s argument against programming corporations to be sociopathic by solely focusing on maximizing profits.
  • Stout argued that people have interests beyond self-interest and corporations should be designed similarly.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Biewen

Eventually, Rick's work introduced him to the B Corp movement. B Lab wanted Delaware to create a new legal entity and corporate structure, the Benefit Corporation, so B Corps could operate in the state.

Jordi Llatje i Espinal

And at the time they came to Delaware, I was the chair of this committee of the bar that sort of every year would look at the statute and look at what was happening in the world and decide Whether changes were needed. And to be like candid, we just kind of laughed and we said, well, that's cute. That's something like, you know, Ben and Jerry's, they were one of the early B Corps. That's something like Ben and Jerry would like, but we're serious. Delaware, you know, all the big multi-billion dollar companies are incorporated here. We can't, we're not interested in that. But they were persistent.

John Biewen

Alexander started doing research into the B Corp idea and the wider network, though still pretty small and fringy, of business reformers.

Jordi Llatje i Espinal

You know, there's this whole movement out there talking about stakeholder capitalism and conscious capitalism and all these different things out there. And I started looking at them. And the one thing, there was an academic, her name is Lynn Stout. She's passed away too early, but she was at the time, she was a corporate law professor at Cornell and one of the things she said was that well people also have interests just like self Interests just like corporations but people don't walk around saying I'm just always going to take as much as I can from every situation that I can and never think about anyone else's Interests. And when you do meet people like that, you call them a

[47:36] Limitations of Voluntary Business Reform

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (46:01 - 47:35)

Limitations of Voluntary Business Reform

  • Many capitalist reform efforts, like ESG and stakeholder capitalism, appeal to the bottom line, arguing that doing good won’t hurt profits.
  • However, real change requires breaking free from the core assumption that the primary goal of business is maximizing profit.
  • Voluntary efforts to shift business culture and goals, like the B Corp movement, are promising but slow.
  • These reforms may take generations to achieve meaningful change, but urgent action is needed given the current global challenges, and voluntary change is too slow.
  • As Frederick Douglass said, “Power concedes nothing without a demand.”

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Ellen McGirt

One problem I see with Rick Alexander's approach is that he's still appealing to the bottom line. And this is something I've found again and again with so many capitalist reform efforts. ESG, stakeholder capitalism, and so on. Folks are trying to get people to run their businesses differently. But they feel compelled to say, but your profits won't suffer.

John Biewen

Right. You can do more good, but don't worry. You'll still be doing just as well as you're doing now.

Ellen McGirt

And I'm afraid that's just not going to get it done. If you're not breaking out of the core assumption that the number one task of business is to make a profit, and not just that, the largest possible profit, then it's hard to see real change Coming. And sure enough, after years of this kind of talk and these earnest efforts, real change has not come. So I think what this episode shows is both the promise and the limitations of these voluntary efforts. Folks like B-Lab with the B Corp movement and benefit corporations and Rick Alexander with his drive to get investors to think and behave differently. These are attempts to shift the culture and the goals of business and finance.

John Biewen

And that's inspiring. But at this that shift will take generations, and we don't have that kind of time. That Frederick Douglass quote comes to mind, doesn't it, Ellen? Power concedes nothing without a demand.

Ellen McGirt

It never did, and

S7 E9: At the Tipping Point

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Episode metadata

Show notes > In 1972, a team of young scientists at MIT published a study exploring what would happen to human civilization if people kept pursuing endless economic growth on a finite planet. They weren’t just disbelieved, they were ridiculed. The story of Donella Meadows and The Limits to Growth.
> Reported and produced by Katy Shields and Vegard Beyer, with co-hosts John Biewen and Ellen McGirt. Story editor: Loretta Williams. Archival audio of Donella Meadows, Dennis Meadows, Aurelio Peccei, Jay Forrester, and others. Interviewee: John Fullerton.Original music by Nora Beyer. Additional music by Michelle Osis and Lili Haydn. Music consulting by Joe Augustine of Narrative Music. "Capitalism” is a production of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University, in partnership with Imperative 21. 
>
>
> Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices
  • Show notes link:: open website
  • Tags: #podcasts #snipd
  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Snips

[04:04] Limits to Growth

🎧 Play snip - 24sec️ (03:41 - 04:05)

Limits to Growth

  • The book ‘The Limits to Growth’ (1972) offered a systemic analysis of humanity’s biggest problems and predicted what would happen if current trends continued.
  • It highlighted the conflict between a capitalist economy’s dependence on endless growth and the finite nature of Earth’s resources.
  • Despite selling millions of copies and being translated into numerous languages, the book’s predictions were largely dismissed and ridiculed.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Ellen McGirt

Why we're talking about this book in the series about capitalism. The title, The Limits to Growth, offers a pretty big clue. Throughout this series, we've seen how a capitalist economy depends on growth, and more growth, and more, and more.

John Biewen

As John Fullerton said to me, the growth imperative is at the heart of capitalism's fundamental algorithm.

[20:45] First World Model

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (19:09 - 20:55)

First World Model

  • Jay Forrester, inspired by discussions with the Club of Rome about global issues, created the first world model.
  • He sketched it on Swiss napkins during a meeting in Bern, Switzerland.
  • The model included five core elements: population, food, industry, resources, and pollution.
  • It also considered other interacting factors like healthcare, investment, and technology.
  • Forrester demonstrated how changes in one area could affect the entire system using lines and connectors.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Katy Shields

He invited Jay to accompany him to Bern that summer. And so on that warm June evening in Switzerland, as Jay listened to the increasingly fraught discussions among the Club of Rome members, he took his knowledge of modeling the dynamics Of industries and cities and sketched out the first ever world model right there on a set of Swiss napkins.

Vegard Beyer

And I told them they could come to MIT and learn more about this, but they would have to come for two weeks or not at all, because I knew that it would take two weeks for them to really understand. And they agreed. They agreed there at midnight that evening that they would come. They would come three weeks from that day.

Katy Shields

Jay touched down in Boston at almost the exact same time as Dana and Dennis were returning from their trip to Asia. Jay Forrester had promised to teach the Club of Rome all about what he called systems dynamics. Now he needed help from his small department's best computer scientists to demonstrate their work in action. That scientist was, of course, Dennis Meadows. With a few weeks yet before Harvard would open its doors, Dana decided to accompany him, initially planning on listening to what sounded simply like an intriguing seminar. Jay had transcribed the model that he had started on those Swiss napkins in Bern. He now proceeded to present to Aurelio and the executive members of the Club of Rome his model of the world system. It comprised five core elements population, food, industry, resources and pollution and a host of others that interacted with these and each other like education, healthcare, investment And technology. By

[23:25] Donella Meadows Joins “The Limits to Growth” Project

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Donella Meadows Joins “The Limits to Growth” Project

  • Jay Forrester declined to lead the Club of Rome’s project after they offered funding based on his world system model.
  • Dennis Meadows, who worked with Forrester, proposed to use the prototype and create scenarios.
  • Donella Meadows gave up her Harvard Fellowship to work on the project unpaid to avoid nepotism accusations.
  • The Club of Rome accepted Dennis’s proposal, and they began the first major attempt to model the world system.
  • Their job was to refine the model with real-world data, consulting various experts on many topics.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Katy Shields

Reasons that Jay never made clear, but were likely influenced by the prospect of the work moving full-time to Switzerland, he declined Aurelio's generous offer to lead the project. Dennis, who had been working side by side with Jay, went home that evening and wrote a proposal. He would use Jay's prototype to show what would happen if current trends continued, and create and test alternative scenarios that could help find solutions to mankind's interconnected Problems. As he discussed his ideas with Dana, she decided there and then to give up her hard-earned Harvard Fellowship to help Dennis work on the project. And though her skills would prove valuable in ways she could not yet imagine, to avoid any accusation of nepotism, she insisted on joining the project without pay. Although he was just 28 years old at the time, the Club of Rome accepted Dennis' proposal. Now he and Dana found themselves conducting the first major attempt to model the world system. Jay Forrester had provided the basic structure. Their job was to test it and track down the best numbers to create the scenarios. Over the following months they met with leading geologists, agronomists, chemists, physicists, ecologists, demographers, economists. They studied soil erosion, ozone layer depletion, chemical pollution, acid rain, infant mortality, poverty, malnutrition. They learned about the Earth's mineral deposits and fossil fuel reserves and the energy required to extract them. And

[25:50] Kaibab Plateau Deer Population

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (24:24 - 25:59)

Kaibab Plateau Deer Population

  • The Kaibab Plateau illustrates the consequences of exceeding the limits of a finite system.
  • Initially, the plateau had a balanced ecosystem with deer and predators like wolves and coyotes.
  • Cattle ranchers disrupted this balance, so the government allowed hunters to eliminate the predators to supposedly protect the deer.
  • This removal, however, destroyed the negative feedback loop provided by predation.
  • As a result, the deer population exploded, overgrazed, and ultimately damaged their own habitat, leading to a population crash.

📚 Transcript

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Katy Shields

Kaibab Plateau in Arizona is another such finite system. An elevated area bounded by steep cliff drops on all sides, it is almost impossible for land animals to migrate in or out unaided. Until the late 1800s, the Kaibab was a thriving, balanced ecosystem consisting of deer and natural predators such as wolves and coyotes. That is, until cattle ranchers moved in, leading to a drop in native deer numbers. In an attempt to protect the deer, the government allowed hunters to kill the native predators. Recall how in systems dynamics, Jay Forrester used the term feedback to describe the reaction of one part of a system to changes elsewhere in the system. Negative feedbacks balance or counteract the change, while positive ones reinforce them. Here is Dana using the language of systems dynamics to explain what happens when the predators are removed. The predation rate is part of a negative feedback loop. By the time the predator population comes down to zero, the balance between the positive feedback and the negative feedback is destroyed and starts generating an exponentially growing Deer population. As the food gets depleted, it takes longer and longer for it to regenerate. What happens is it drags the deer population down with it. In other words, the removal of the predators, instead of protecting the deer, had the exact opposite effect. It allowed the deer to multiply to such an extent that they eroded their own habitat.

[29:50] Pollution and Technological Solutions

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (29:09 - 29:56)

Pollution and Technological Solutions

  • Even with bans on pollutants like DDT, the accumulated levels continued to rise, posing ongoing environmental and health risks.
  • New pollutants and environmental issues were constantly being discovered.
  • This raised concerns that even if technologies were developed to address pollution, the pace of new discoveries and the lag in implementing effective solutions would create a persistent challenge.
  • There was concern that technological solutions alone might not be sufficient if the underlying causes, such as industrial growth, were not also addressed.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Katy Shields

Only that, but it had taken Rachel Carson two decades to prove DDT was harmful to human health. And around another decade for Congress to enact a ban, no thanks to lobbying by chemical companies. The thinning ozone layer, acid rain, global warming. There were a host of other pollutants and problems the team was only just discovering, and possibly many more going unnoticed. So, if bans alone couldn't prevent pollution from rising, perhaps technologies could be deployed to clean them up? After all, America had just put a man on the moon. Well, despite what critics may later claim, the team did indeed account for rising technological progress. Here is Dennis Meadows explaining their approach to technology in the world model.

[34:12] Standard Run & Collapse

🎧 Play snip - 3min️ (31:33 - 34:17)

Standard Run & Collapse

  • The MIT team’s “Standard Run” simulation, based on 1970s data, showed continued industrial and population growth leading to rapid economic expansion and increased pollution.
  • By 2020, the planet’s condition becomes critical due to pollution.
  • Around 2040-2050, civilized life as we know it ceases to exist in this scenario, due to the collapse of the industrial system, not necessarily the Earth system, due to overconsumption and pollution.
  • Further simulations with varying parameters like unlimited resources, faster technological progress, and switching to nuclear energy showed that growth caused resource depletion or excessive pollution, resulting in a collapse.
  • Collapse resulted from overshooting Earth’s capacity, similar to the Kaibab deer.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Katy Shields

Months after they started their work, the MIT team produced what came to be known as the Standard Run. In that scenario, industry and population continued to grow based on the dynamics of the 1960s and early 70s. For the first few decades, expansion was rapid and the global economy, and with it, pollution, ballooned.

Ellen McGirt

From 1980 to the year 2020, pollution really takes off. So the year 2020, the condition of the planet starts to become highly critical.

Katy Shields

But with limited measures to use resources more judiciously, a rise in consumption combined with exponential growth in pollution started impacting food supplies and then, of course, Human health.

Ellen McGirt

Pollution is going to become so serious that it will start to kill people. So the population will diminish. And at this stage, round about the year 2040-2050, civilised life as we know it on this planet will cease to exist.

Katy Shields

They were not talking about the end of life as we know it. But as Dana herself later explained, If we run into those limits, what will happen will be a collapse of our system, not necessarily the Earth system, but the industrial system. Now, you may expect the team to have been alarmed by this finding. After all, it meant a child born in the year 1970 could live to see the breakdown of modern civilization. But, as physicist Jörgen Randers, just 25 when he worked on the project, explained.

John Biewen

I was a very young man and naive in the sense that I thought that once we told the world that the planet is small and that it's a great challenge for humanity to fit a large population and A large economy onto this tiny little planet. I had thought naively that the world would listen and say, yes, clearly this is good advice and we're going to follow this advice.

Katy Shields

So the team set about figuring out what that advice could look like. The team simulated 10 new scenarios, one with unlimited mineral resources, another with faster rates of technological progress, in a third, complete switch from fossil fuels to Nuclear energy, and so on. In most scenarios, humanity flourished initially. As the economy expanded, incomes rose and nutrition and health improved. But, even where the population eventually stabilised, exponential growth and consumption caused humanity to use up more and more natural resources, or to produce more pollution Or waste at rates too fast for the Earth to

[33:30] Limits to Growth - Standard Run

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (32:05 - 33:33)

Limits to Growth - Standard Run

  • In the ‘Standard Run’ scenario, the MIT team modeled what would happen if industrial and population growth continued at the rate of the early 1970s.
  • Initially, the global economy and pollution grow rapidly.
  • By 2020, the planet’s condition becomes critical due to rising consumption and pollution, affecting food supplies and human health.
  • Around 2040-2050, the model predicts a collapse of the industrial system, not necessarily the Earth’s systems, due to exceeding planetary limits.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Katy Shields

With limited measures to use resources more judiciously, a rise in consumption combined with exponential growth in pollution started impacting food supplies and then, of course, Human health.

Ellen McGirt

Pollution is going to become so serious that it will start to kill people. So the population will diminish. And at this stage, round about the year 2040-2050, civilised life as we know it on this planet will cease to exist.

Katy Shields

They were not talking about the end of life as we know it. But as Dana herself later explained, If we run into those limits, what will happen will be a collapse of our system, not necessarily the Earth system, but the industrial system. Now, you may expect the team to have been alarmed by this finding. After all, it meant a child born in the year 1970 could live to see the breakdown of modern civilization. But, as physicist Jörgen Randers, just 25 when he worked on the project, explained.

John Biewen

I was a very young man and naive in the sense that I thought that once we told the world that the planet is small and that it's a great challenge for humanity to fit a large population and A large economy onto this tiny little planet. I had thought naively that the world would listen and say, yes, clearly this is good advice and we're going to follow

[35:21] Controlling Growth

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (34:36 - 35:21)

Controlling Growth

  • Jay Forrester explained to Donella Meadows why humans can’t keep pushing back limits like resource availability or pollution while still aiming for indefinite economic growth on a finite planet.
  • Increasing system complexity creates new problems, hindering solutions to the main issue.
  • The core problem is controlling and stabilizing growth before encountering limits.
  • Humanity must choose its own limits or let nature impose them.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Katy Shields

Later recalled in her memoir how Jay Forrester had once explained to her why this was bound to happen, why humans simply can't keep pushing back all limits, like those on resources or Pollution, while still trying to grow the human economy indefinitely on what was essentially a finite planet. Making the system bigger and more complex simply creates new and often more wicked problems, making it impossible to solve the problematique. It's growth, Dana concluded. The problem is how to control and stabilise growth before the system hits limits. Our solution, she realised, must be to choose our own limits, or let nature choose them for us.

[38:35] Hope in Cultural Change

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (37:19 - 38:42)

Hope in Cultural Change

  • Donella Meadows observed cultural change mechanisms in the US, driven by young people experimenting with alternative lifestyles.
  • These lifestyles, rather than being sacrifices, are found to be more fulfilling than traditional American cultural patterns.
  • This shift offers hope for a transition towards an equilibrium society, suggesting a different perspective, not a sacrifice, could lead to many benefits.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Vegard Beyer

Very hopeful in this country that the mechanisms do exist for this kind of cultural change. In fact, I think it's already happening. I think we're one step, one contribution to a change which is indeed taking place, largely among young people who are trying many experiments, some of which may turn out to be very useful In an equilibrium society. And I think the thing that encourages me, I work in a university with some of these young people, is that they are discovering that the alternate lifestyles that they are trying are not Sacrifices, and they're not unpleasant. And in many ways, they are more satisfying and their lives are more fulfilling than they, let's say, than they would have been if they followed the pattern which we have come to regard As the cultural pattern of America. And it's this which gives me great hope. I don't think we're calling for a great sacrifice. I only think we're calling for a slightly different way of looking at things, which could in fact lead to many benefits.

Katy Shields

Nonetheless, their proposal could have profound implications. If the economy were to eventually stop growing, it would mean future income and technologies would need to be redistributed more fairly within and across countries, starting with The richest nation, the United States. Just

[39:35] Implications of Zero Economic Growth

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (38:20 - 39:37)

Implications of Zero Economic Growth

  • If economic growth stops, future income and technologies need to be redistributed more fairly within and across countries.
  • This redistribution should start with the richest nations, like the United States.
  • The challenge lies in convincing wealthy nations to adopt this path.
  • The Club of Rome’s task was to identify and implement policies for a smooth transition to a stable world where growth isn’t the solution to every problem.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Katy Shields

Nonetheless, their proposal could have profound implications. If the economy were to eventually stop growing, it would mean future income and technologies would need to be redistributed more fairly within and across countries, starting with The richest nation, the United States. Just how that may be achieved? How America and other rich nations could be convinced to follow such a path? That, the team thought, was a job for the Club of Rome. It is our conclusion that the overwhelming task of the Club of Rome is to identify and implement that set of policies which will permit us to negotiate an orderly transition to a stable World. It was with these words that Dennis ended his presentation of the MIT team's main findings at the annual gathering of the Club of Rome in Montebello, Canada in the spring of 1971. The club members listened politely, spoke kind words, recalled Dana, and went back to discussing the world's problems as if each was unrelated to all the others and as if there were No limits.

[40:02] Growth Ideology

🎧 Play snip - 23sec️ (39:38 - 40:02)

Growth Ideology

  • The Club of Rome members failed to grasp the concept of Earth’s limits.
  • They treated global problems as isolated issues, advocating for economic growth as the universal solution.
  • Examples include addressing energy shortages with more oil/nuclear power and poverty with increased economic activity.
  • The core issue isn’t merely failing to acknowledge limits, but rather a deep-seated belief in endless growth as a means to postpone those limits indefinitely.

📚 Transcript

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Katy Shields

As they took upon each problem, they called on growth to solve it. Energy shortages? We need more oil discoveries, more nuclear power. Poverty? More economic growth. Hunger? More food production. Urban slums? More housing. Pollution? More economic growth so we can afford pollution control. That was when Dana first realised that the problem was not recognising the Earth's limits. But as she later wrote,

[51:00] Limits to Growth - 5 Key Findings

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (48:44 - 50:59)

Limits to Growth - 5 Key Findings

  • There are physical limits to growth that children alive today are likely to encounter.
  • Ignoring these limits while basing policies on continued growth will likely lead to overshoot and collapse – a decline in both population and industrial capacity.
  • There’s a viable alternative where population and production are balanced with the environment.
  • Reaching this alternative will take 50-100+ years.
  • Delaying action makes a smooth transition harder and reduces future options.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Vegard Beyer

Been led, on the basis of this work to five basic conclusions. There are physical limits to growth which, given current trends, are very likely to be encountered even during the lifetime of our children. Second, the most likely outcome of running into these limits, if we continue to ignore them and instead base our short-term policies on the assumption of continued growth, is that We'll overshoot those limits and collapse, that there will be an uncontrolled decline both in population and industrial capacity. That won't take place at the same time around the world. It will certainly take different forms. It will be more or less severe in different societies, depending on what happens between now and then and on the level of industrialization. But in each case, it's likely to be extremely traumatic. The third conclusion is that we appear to have a viable alternative to this outcome, one in which population and material production could be brought into balance with a finite environment And with our resources. A fourth conclusion is that it's realistically going to take a period of 50 years, 100 years or more, to reach that alternative in an orderly fashion. And finally, and I think this is extremely important, every year we delay beginning to form our goals and moving towards them makes an orderly transition to this stable situation much More difficult and it decreases our ultimate options.

Katy Shields

The first to react to Dennis's presentation was Elliot Richardson, Secretary of State for Health and Education and one of President Nixon's closest members of Cabinet.

Vegard Beyer

Thank you very much Mr. Reid, Dr. Meadows, ladies and gentlemen. I can say one thing very clearly and very emphatically, and that is that I believe all of us, all of us in the United States, and I think indeed every world citizen, are indebted to the Club Of Rome. The study is too thoughtful, too thorough, too significant, and the consequences of ignoring its implications too disastrous,

[53:19] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (52:13 - 53:18)

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Katy Shields

Only question now was, how would the world outside react?

Vegard Beyer

Across the Charles River at MIT in Cambridge, a team of scientists built a global computer model on paper to measure long-term trends. They found, and this is the core of their startling book, The Limits to Growth, that the way things are going now, the planet can support us for less than 100 years. It may be nearer 50. This is Edward P. Morgan, ABC News, Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Katy Shields

Thanks to Don's extensive PR efforts, the team made that evening's primetime news. And the next day, many of the leading titles had their story splashed across the front pages. Mankind warned to curb growth or face catastrophe, ran one headline. Will growth kill humanity, ran another? To grow and to die, prepare to meet thy doom. Farewell to civilization.

[58:04] Dana Meadows’ Resilience

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (56:20 - 58:10)

Dana Meadows’ Resilience

  • Dana Meadows faced significant backlash for her work on ‘The Limits to Growth’.
  • Despite personal hurt, she continued her research and education on sustainability.
  • She set up an international network of scientists to promote collaboration.
  • Her ideas were only widely acknowledged after her death in 2001, highlighting the delayed recognition of her contributions.

📚 Transcript

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Katy Shields

But though she was personally hurt and saddened by the backlash at the time, Dana Meadows didn't let it stop her continuing the work they had started. After limits to growth, she and Dennis moved to Dartmouth to continue their research on world systems, and Dana also taught classes in systems thinking. And together they set up an international network of scientists to promote collaboration in the field of what Dana and others term sustainability. And she worked to educate the public too. She wrote a newspaper column for many years that was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize and earned her a MacArthur Genius Grant. And she also taught environmental journalism at Dartmouth. But it was only later after she died in 2001, at the age of just 59, that her ideas started to be taken seriously by influential people. The first chapter of an unfinished textbook that she had begun writing was posthumously published as the book Thinking in Systems, which has become very popular across many disciplines.

John Biewen

Her influence is enormous now. So many people we've talked to for this series, people thinking about and working for economic change, cite her work and the limits to growth as pivotal in their thinking. And let's just point out that systems thinking, as in the work of Dana and Dennis Meadows and their team and folks like Jay Forrester, is the polar opposite of reductionist thinking, Which we talked about in episodes three and four.

Katy Shields

Exactly. Instead of honing in on a narrow slice of the world, comparing, say, just two metrics like CO2 and growth of GDP, you're trying to get a bird's eye view of the whole system. Everything fits together and how changes in one part of the system affect another part and then another and

[01:01:04] New Economics Inspired by Limits to Growth

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (59:49 - 01:01:02)

New Economics Inspired by Limits to Growth

  • A new generation of economists, influenced by the “Limits to Growth,” are incorporating its lessons into their models, diverging from traditional neoclassical economics.
  • Kate Raworth’s “Donut Economics” is a prominent example, visualizing a sweet spot for humanity’s economic activity.
  • This model emphasizes meeting everyone’s basic needs (the social foundation) while staying within ecological limits (the ecological ceiling).

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Ellen McGirt

Also a new breed of economists now who have been influenced by limits to growth and incorporate its lessons into their models, very much unlike traditional neoclassical economists.

Katy Shields

Yes, probably the best known as Kate Raworth, the British economist. She invented donut economics and published a book of the same name in 2017. So let me start with this donut, the one donut in the world that actually turns out to be good for us, because I've learned that pictures are powerful.

John Biewen

This is Kate Raworth giving a talk in the Netherlands. She visualizes her economic model as a donut-like ring. The ring represents the sweet spot where all of humanity and our economic activity can live and thrive.

Katy Shields

So that the hole in the middle is a place where people are left falling short, without the resources that they need for health care, education, food, water, housing, energy, mobility. We want to leave nobody in that hole, get everybody over the social foundation into the donut. But, and this is a big but, we cannot collectively overshoot the outer ring, the ecological ceiling, because there we begin to tip our planet out of

John Q (w/ Nina Turner)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by former Ohio state senator and congressional candidate Nina Turner for a heartfelt discussion about the Denzel Washington health insurance drama John Q, the story of father who holds an emergency room hostage after learning his health insurance won’t cover his son’s heart transplant. Even though the film was made in 2002, its message and themes remain as relevant as ever. Nina shares her personal experience with the American health care system and talks about the country’s desperate need for universal health care. They also explore how the health care industry dehumanizes both patients and doctors, and how the film’s clear-eyed portrayal of John Q leads to even his hostages feeling sympathy for him.
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> Artwork by Rufus Paisley | Theme song by JustBen
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Snips

[03:25] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (02:15 - 03:25)

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Frank Capello

Really enjoyed this movie the barbie movie like i had a lot of fun there was a lot of like really cool redeeming stuff in there but here are some thoughts as well and i think i don't know i Think we should be able to have that kind of critical discussion about anything and everything you can't just like blindly support something and being like this is good it is pure if You say it is not you are bad like that is just such a reductive way to diminish the discourse i think it's a survival skill and i think it's like the first first step is just recognizing

Rivka Rivera

Like i realize that about myself i do that about things that i have fear around and yeah i've just been thinking a lot about that in this moment of time of like this is a survival skill and What are in order to replace one survivor's survival skill you have to like replace it with something else because it's too much in this moment in time to just like let that go.

Frank Capello

Well, that's the other part of it is I think it is easier and simpler to accept a binary choice rather than have to engage with the complexity and nuance of a particular issue or topic or, You know, just even a movie that we're talking

[46:50] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (45:40 - 46:50)

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Rivka Rivera

Made in 2002 and now it's 2023 and it is really upsetting that it's only continued like you said to be more relatable it's also for as uh for as intense and as the subject matter is, it's

Frank Capello

Also like a very, very good movie. Like you're gripped. I don't want to say entertaining. It's not like you're sitting there with popcorn like, you know, haha. But it's a gripping movie that just draws you in. And I was really glad I got the chance to revisit it. Did either of you have anything else you wanted to talk about before we go to the awards?

Nina Turner

You know, ultimately, the end, since we spoiler alert already, you know, that Denzel didn't have to kill himself. And ultimately, he didn't have any bullets in that gun. His intent was not to really kill anybody. He was just trying to get some attention for his son. You know, I love that part about it too. But when push came to shove, he was going to sacrifice his life. He had the bullets on him. He just didn't have them in the gun. And the movie does a good job of really, who's the bad guy? We talked about that. I mean, very clear, it's

Zoolander (w/ Brian Morabito)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by actor and comedian Brian Morabito for a heated debate about Ben Stiller’s 2001 comedy set in the world of high fashion, Zoolander, which seems more interested in portraying models as vapid rather than genuinely critiquing the destructive and exploitative fashion industry. 
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Snips

[01:02:17] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:01:07 - 01:02:17)

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Brian Morabito

It. And also the enjoyment in your life where it's like, this is something, this is a piece of art that brought you joy. And every, it's your choice. It's our choice. But like, you know, we will be poorer for it in our lives. If, you know, I had this moment in college and, you know, we all went to school together they're especially freshman year i didn't go to a performing arts high school and we show up and There was a class where you're in a leotard or a unitard and you have a scarf around your waist and we're walking around the room and we're going we must all be very kind to one another. This is not an exaggeration. This is literally what we did. $200,000. Can confirm.

Frank Capello

Yep, we did this.

Brian Morabito

And I had, most of my freshman year, I was like furious. I was like, this is a fucking waste of time. I should leave and I should become a park ranger. And this is dumb. And it took me a long time to realize that it's like, you don't win anything by being the grumpiest guy in the room by having the worst time there, you know what I mean? And you actually stop yourself from getting any value out of so many experiences by shutting yourself off and focusing

S7 E5: A New Thing in Human History

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Show notes > An age of invention and mass production, propelled by a new mechanism – the corporate research lab – leads to a surge in material wealth like the world has never seen. How does a new nation, the United States, overtake its parent as the leader of the surging capitalist order? And what does it all mean in the lives of ordinary people? 
> By John Biewen, with co-host Ellen McGirt. Interviews with Woody Holton, Robin Alario, Edward Baptist, and Brad DeLong. Story editor: Loretta Williams. Music by Michelle Osis, Lilli Haydn, Chris Westlake, Alex Symcox, and Goodnight, Lucas. Music consulting by Joe Augustine of Narrative Music. "Capitalism” is a production of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University, in partnership with Imperative 21. 
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Snips

[07:13] Proclamation of 1763

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (06:29 - 07:20)

Proclamation of 1763

  • Historian Woody Holton highlights the Royal Proclamation of 1763, which prevented land speculators from claiming Native American lands west of the Appalachian Mountains.
  • This frustrated wealthy colonists like Washington and Jefferson, contributing to the American Revolution.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Woody Holton of the University of South Carolina, author of Forced Founders, among other books, he points out that in the 1760s, the British government started tightening its economic Control in the American colonies.

Speaker 4

It's the British that are taking the initiative and trying to change the relationship between the colony and the ground.

Speaker 2

Most people know about the new taxes that angered those British subjects in America. The Stamp Act of 1765, the tax on tea that led to the Boston Tea Party in 1773. But before all that, in 1763, the British parliament issued a proclamation that seriously pissed off some of the American gentry.

Speaker 1

The Royal Proclamation of 1763. It prevented land speculators from claiming ownership of native lands west of

[08:30] George Washington, Land Speculator

🎧 Play snip - 15sec️ (08:16 - 08:32)

George Washington, Land Speculator

  • George Washington, a young officer and aggressive land speculator, was angered by the Royal Proclamation of 1763 which prevented him from claiming land in the Ohio Valley.
  • This proclamation, meant to limit westward expansion, blocked Washington’s plans and contributed to his frustration with British rule.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Yes. One member of the colonial elite who was infuriated by the proclamation of 1763 was a young officer and aggressive land speculator named George Washington. He had plans to claim a big

[10:27] Revolution and Slavery

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (09:44 - 10:26)

Revolution and Slavery

  • British loyalists tried to gain support from enslaved people by offering them freedom if they joined the British side.
  • This enraged slaveholding colonists like Thomas Jefferson, pushing them towards revolution.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Such luck. Not only did the Brits keep tightening the screws, they then stuck their noses into the colonial slave holders business, one time too many, Woody says. When it looked like there might be war between the British and the Americans, British loyalists made a move to get the support of enslaved black people. The royal governor of the colony of Virginia, Lord Dunmore, promised freedom for black people if they'd run away from their owners and enlist on the British side.

Speaker 2

And some did. One or two thousand black men escaped from their plantations and joined British forces.

Speaker 1

This enraged some slaveholding colonists. Most importantly,

[14:25] US Constitution’s Focus

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (12:58 - 14:20)

US Constitution’s Focus

  • The 1787 US Constitutional Convention prioritized protecting private property and the interests of the wealthy.
  • This was central to the national project, echoing Enlightenment thinker John Locke.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

So if the 55 men at the Constitutional Convention didn't spend that summer in Philadelphia discussing freedom of speech and the right to bear arms. What were they talking about? Those rich merchants, lawyers, and slaveholding planters. A whole lot of the debate had economic ramifications. Echoing the Enlightenment thinker John Locke, framers like Gouverneur Morris, a wealthy from New York, put the protection of private property at the center of the national project. An accurate view of the matter would prove that property is the main object of society. For almost half of the convention delegates, the slaveholders, property meant people. The framers infamously reached compromises to ensure that slavery would remain legal and gave disproportionate power to the slave states so their delegates wouldn't stomp out of The convention. There was talk about class and the fact that the wealthy, represented by the men in the room, would always be far outnumbered by the poor working classes. In those days the vast majority were farmers. All communities divide themselves into the few and the many. The first are the rich and well -born, the other the mass of the people. Those are the words of Alexander Hamilton. He

[15:52] Framers’ Priorities

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Framers’ Priorities

  • The framers of the Constitution prioritized attracting and facilitating the movement of capital.
  • They aimed to achieve this by making America less democratic to ensure a safer environment for investment.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Most states in the 1780s held elections every year and put few checks on their legislatures. This made state lawmakers highly responsive to the wishes of ordinary white male people, tax -paying farmers. Elbridge Gary of Massachusetts said this at the Constitutional Convention.

Speaker 3

The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy.

Speaker 1

So it didn't include a bill of rights, but the first cut of the Constitution did have a section taking away the state's power to print money, and to pass laws that affect business contracts Or international trade. It gave those powers to the federal government. Woody Holton says if you read the Constitution carefully and the debate around it, the framers number one priority comes through loud and clear, attracting and facilitating the movement Of capital.

[20:03] Slavery Drove US Economy

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Slavery Drove US Economy

  • The rise of the American manufacturing and consumer economies was built on the unpaid labor of enslaved black people.
  • Slavery, particularly in cotton production, transformed the post-colonial US economy from a backwater to a global economic leader.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

But let's not forget the foundation on which this industry stood, the unpaid labor of enslaved black people. Slavery, especially cotton slavery and the expansion of cotton slavery, drove that sort of post -colonial economy from

[21:50] Slavery and US Economic Growth

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Slavery and US Economic Growth

  • The US South’s slavery-based economy became globally important, driving a new global capitalist industrial economy.
  • Cotton became the world’s most valuable commodity, like oil today, giving the US an advantage with its own mills and land.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Industrial economy. And slavery in the US South is central to all of that. Historian Edward Baptist of Cornell University, author of The Half Has Never Been Told, Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism. He says in the first half of the 19th century, cotton became the world's most traded and most valuable commodity, much like oil in today's world. It's easy to see why the United States had an advantage over its competitors across the Atlantic. The Europeans had mills, but they had to import cotton. The U .S. Now had its own mills and its own land for cotton fields, which the new nation got busy expanding and expanding. Americans hear a lot about the nation's westward expansion, those wagon trains rumbling across the prairie to Oregon and California. But before that, the United States pushed its frontier into the old Southwest, what we now call the Southeast. Of the 13 original states, only South Carolina and Georgia were in prime cotton growing territory. Seeing a chance to build a cotton empire, U .S. Leaders moved aggressively into what would become Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and eventually Texas. Remind us of the steps that are needed. First of all, you got to take the land. Yep. First of all, you have to take the land and that meant for one thing, cutting deals with the European empires

[23:09] US Cotton Empire

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (21:29 - 23:08)

US Cotton Empire

  • To build a cotton empire, US leaders expanded into Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas.
  • This involved taking land from Native American tribes like the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Seminole through wars and treaties.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Seeing a chance to build a cotton empire, U .S. Leaders moved aggressively into what would become Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and eventually Texas. Remind us of the steps that are needed. First of all, you got to take the land. Yep. First of all, you have to take the land and that meant for one thing, cutting deals with the European empires that still made claims to that land, France and Spain, the giant Louisiana Purchase of 1803 and the annexing of Mississippi territory, the future states of Mississippi and Alabama in 1804. And above all, you have the native pupils themselves. The Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Seminole peoples who lived on their lands across what is now the southeastern United States. The U .S. Gradually defeats and pushes out all of them in a series of wars and forced treaties, let's say. The states of Tennessee and Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Texas, and Louisiana are swarmed with a huge number of white settlers who bring ultimately what becomes a population Of about two million enslaved African Americans in those states by the 1850s. Ed Baptist says the new white owners of that southern land first put black people to work cutting down forests, then growing and picking cotton. You have the transformation of a subcontinental sized area from woods

[25:09] Cotton and US Economic Power

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (23:39 - 25:07)

Cotton and US Economic Power

  • By the 1850s, Southern US states produced 88-95% of the cotton sold in Liverpool, the world’s biggest cotton market.
  • Between 1800 and 1860, US cotton production grew 500-fold, establishing the US as a major economic power.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

Those states by the 1850s are producing like 88 to 95 percent, depends on the year, of the cotton that is sold in Liverpool, which is the world's biggest cotton market.

Speaker 1

Wow. Between 1800 and 1860, cotton production in the US multiplied 500 fold from 4 million pounds a year to 2 billion. Ken Cotton, more than any other single industry, made the US an important economic power just decades after independence. The country's even more explosive rise in the last half of the century is more familiar. Told in a certain way, it's another cherished part of the national story.

Speaker 4

America's growth following the Civil War is nothing short of epic. Train tracks link east to west as never before. Oil lights homes from coast to coast. And steel is remaking the landscape in a way never thought possible.

Speaker 1

That's from the History Channel mini -series, The Men Who Built America. The series, aired 2012, tells stories of men like Vanderbilt, Morgan,

[28:55] Carnegie and Frick’s Union Busting

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (27:23 - 28:52)

Carnegie and Frick’s Union Busting

  • Carnegie instructed Frick to demand wage cuts and refuse negotiation at his Homestead steel plant.
  • This led to a violent strike with the Pinkertons, resulting in multiple deaths and injuries.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

We all approve of anything you do, Carnegie wrote from 3,000 miles away. We are with you to the end.

Speaker 1

When Homestead's workers went on strike, Frick brought in replacement workers and the Pinkertons, a private security force.

Speaker 3

At least 16 people were killed and more than 150 injured in the battle that followed.

Speaker 1

The swiftly rising economic tide did lift many boats. Average working class wages rose during the late 1800s. But the Gilded Age was known for extreme inequality and shameless consumption by the rich. Historians Steve Fraser and Nell Irvin Painter in the PBS program.

Speaker 3

For people to see a country developing before them that is increasingly clearly divided into the haves and have -nots. Gilded is not golden.

Speaker 2

Gilded has the sense of a patina covering something else. It's the shiny exterior and the rot underneath.

Speaker 1

Mainstream American accounts of the late 19th century often embrace the great man theory of history.

[30:58] Modern Technological Progress

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (29:53 - 31:02)

Modern Technological Progress

  • Since 1870, technological progress has been around 2% per year, compounding annually.
  • This exponential growth means more progress occurs in one year now than in a generation before 1500, or a decade between 1500 and 1770.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

He makes a case that human history after 200,000 years entered an entirely new stage around 1870.

Speaker 3

You try to guess at what the actual rate of improvement of technology is. And we look around us today and we see that since 1870 worldwide, you know, it's kind of 2% per year, you know, that every year we can make what we made last year 2% more cheaply. And so we have, you know, 2% more resources person available to make other things and to discover and invent other things.

Speaker 1

Two percent doesn't sound like a big number, until you consider it's a 2% increase in material capacity every year. Delong says that's about five times the rate of advancement in the century before 1870, 10 times the rate during the several centuries before that, and maybe 50 times faster than humanity's Progress before the year 1500.

Speaker 3

That is, we get more technological progress in one year than they got in a generation back before 1500.

[32:20] A New Stage in History

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (29:53 - 32:20)

A New Stage in History

  • Around 1870, human history entered a new stage due to rapid technological advancements.
  • This period saw unprecedented progress in wealth and technology, exceeding that of the previous 8,000 years.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

He makes a case that human history after 200,000 years entered an entirely new stage around 1870.

Speaker 3

You try to guess at what the actual rate of improvement of technology is. And we look around us today and we see that since 1870 worldwide, you know, it's kind of 2% per year, you know, that every year we can make what we made last year 2% more cheaply. And so we have, you know, 2% more resources person available to make other things and to discover and invent other things.

Speaker 1

Two percent doesn't sound like a big number, until you consider it's a 2% increase in material capacity every year. Delong says that's about five times the rate of advancement in the century before 1870, 10 times the rate during the several centuries before that, and maybe 50 times faster than humanity's Progress before the year 1500.

Speaker 3

That is, we get more technological progress in one year than they got in a generation back before 1500. And we get more progress in one year than they got in a decade, between 1500 and 1770. And that's been more or less the rule since 1870.

Speaker 1

Brad DeLong's big book, Slouching Towards Utopia, was published in 2022. It's an economic history of what he calls the long 20th century, 1870 to 2010. He argues that period is the most consequential in human history, a sudden spurt in which humans made as much progress in collective wealth and technological prowess as in the previous 8,000 years. But DeLong's book is more of a lament than a celebration. We'll get to that in a minute. First, more on the claim he's making about that 140 -year period. So, how were things in 1870?

Speaker 3

Well, you know, they're still pretty bad.

Speaker 1

DeLong quotes the British philosopher John Stuart Mill, who wrote in the early 1870s that all the technological discoveries up to that moment had only allowed a greater population To live the same life of drudgery and imprisonment.

Speaker 3

All the mechanical inventions of the Industrial Revolution,

[34:43] Productivity vs. Population Growth

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (34:05 - 34:48)

Productivity vs. Population Growth

  • Before 1870, economic growth couldn’t keep up with population growth, limiting improvements in living standards.
  • Only after 1870 did productivity grow fast enough to outpace population growth and allow for improved living standards.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

Humans are naturally very, very fertile.

Speaker 1

People made more children than the land could comfortably feed, even as farms did gradually get more productive. Malthus thought sexual abstinence was the only way out of this conundrum. He was wrong.

Speaker 3

It's only after 1870 that productivity growth becomes fast enough, that there's no way that human fecundity can keep up with it. There's no way the population explosion can keep living standards from rising.

Speaker 1

Wage of a working man in London could buy just the bare necessity, 2,000 calories a day for the worker and his family.

[36:27] Post-1870 Abundance

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (35:29 - 36:27)

Post-1870 Abundance

  • Post-1870 technologies like steamships, railroads, telegraphs, and industrial research labs fueled globalization and a global economy.
  • This led to an unprecedented acceleration in economic growth and standards of living.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Abundance?

Speaker 3

What you really need is you need for 1870 to come and for 1870 to bring with it the ocean -going screw -propeller steamship, the full build -out of the railroad network, the full build -out the telegraph network, globalization. You know, the creation of a global economy. And you need the industrial research lab, so it's not just individual inventors thinking of things and then trying to scramble to put together an organization, but rather you rationalize And routinize and so revolutionize the process of technological development.

Speaker 1

It's because of the industrial research lab, he says, that guys like Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla weren't just scientists tinkering in their own labs. Backed by corporate investors like JP Morgan and Westinghouse, they became inventors of world -changing technologies.

Speaker 3

And you also, I

[36:49] Post-1870 Abundance

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (35:30 - 36:49)

Post-1870 Abundance

  • After 1870, human productivity outpaced population growth, leading to increased abundance.
  • Key factors: steamships, railroads, telegraphs, globalization, industrial research labs, and modern corporations.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

What you really need is you need for 1870 to come and for 1870 to bring with it the ocean -going screw -propeller steamship, the full build -out of the railroad network, the full build -out the telegraph network, globalization. You know, the creation of a global economy. And you need the industrial research lab, so it's not just individual inventors thinking of things and then trying to scramble to put together an organization, but rather you rationalize And routinize and so revolutionize the process of technological development.

Speaker 1

It's because of the industrial research lab, he says, that guys like Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla weren't just scientists tinkering in their own labs. Backed by corporate investors like JP Morgan and Westinghouse, they became inventors of world -changing technologies.

Speaker 3

And you also, I think, really do need the modern corporation. You know, big corporations are good at taking some idea and putting it to work not in one factory but in a hundred factories all over the world. And they're also very good at looking at their neighboring corporations and saying, hmm, we should be doing that too.

[38:17] Exponential Material Capacity

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (37:00 - 38:19)

Exponential Material Capacity

  • Humanity’s material capacity began doubling every generation after 1870.
  • This exponential growth is a novel phenomenon in human history.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Humanity's material capacity started doubling every generation. A new thing in human history. And yet, here's Brad DeLong reading from the conclusion of his book, slouching towards utopia. Okay.

Speaker 3

And organize ourselves, have we done so little to build a truly human world to approach within sight of any of our utopias?

Speaker 1

Ellen, we'll hear more about what Brad DeLong means over the next episode or two, but we kind know what he's talking about, don't we?

Speaker 2

I think we do. He's saying that over the last century and a half humanity took huge steps towards solving what seemed to be our greatest material challenge. How to build a big enough economic pie so

[40:41] Wealth Extraction

🎧 Play snip - 16sec️ (40:29 - 40:45)

Wealth Extraction

  • Business owners don’t generate wealth out of thin air.
  • Rather, they extract profits from existing resources, labor and markets.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

When people say capitalism generates wealth, there's this tendency to talk as if the money just spins up out of thin air. It just materializes because Henry Ford or Steve Jobs had a brilliant idea.

[43:08] Stolen Wealth

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (41:51 - 43:08)

Stolen Wealth

  • The wealth of the US was built on stolen land taken from Indigenous peoples.
  • Enslaved Black people contributed over 400 billion unpaid labor hours.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Even earlier than 1619, and the beginning of slavery and what would become the United States. It starts before that with the land, and everything the land makes possible. There is no USA, no cotton empire, no agricultural powerhouse, no lumber, railroads, no oil fields, without this vast and abundant land.

Speaker 2

Which the colonizers took by genocidal force and deception from the people who belonged to this land for thousands of years. So an undeniable sense, the wealth that resulted from the exploitation of this land in particular was stolen.

Speaker 1

A whole lot of the wealth that built this country was stolen in another way, too.

Speaker 2

Yes, from the enslaved black people who provided against their will absolutely pivotal labor in the construction of the U .S. As an economic power.

Speaker 1

Researchers have estimated that a total of 10 million African people lived their lives as chattel in colonial America and the United States between 1619 and 1865. And those people contributed. Are you ready? Over 400 billion

[45:48] US Economic Growth

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (44:18 - 45:50)

US Economic Growth

  • The growth of the US economy in the 19th century was fueled by various workers, including enslaved people, railroad workers, and those in factories and farms.
  • The US government played a key role by granting land to railroad companies.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Growing economic might in the 19th century and where that wealth came from besides the land, Think of all the workers.

Speaker 2

The construction of the railroads, which accelerated economic growth, required the labor of hundreds of thousands of people over decades. Those workers came from all over the world. In the Western U .S., the majority were Chinese immigrants recruited to this country specifically to do that job. Because white men were not applying in big enough numbers.

Speaker 1

I looked up their pay. Chinese rail workers in California in the 1860s, working six days a week, were paid an average of $26 a month, according to an estimate from Stanford University. That's less than $6 ,000 a year in today's money.

Speaker 2

No wonder those rail companies had to go across the Pacific to a much poorer country to find workers. We could go on though through different industries. The workers in those textile mills, in the shipyards, the mines, the steel mills, the oil fields, on farms all over the country in garment factories. Come again, who built the wealth of the United States?

Speaker 1

I gotta add this footnote about the railroads, though it's not really a footnote, it's pretty dang important. The US government, having taken land from indigenous tribes, made land grants of and millions of acres to the railroad companies in the 1850s

S7 E6: Thirty Glorious Years

Cover|200

Episode metadata

Show notes > How the balance of power shifted, for a time, in the decades after World War II, and led to a better kind of capitalism – if you think prosperity being broadly shared is a good thing. 
> By John Biewen, with co-host Ellen McGirt. Interviews with Eric Rauchway and Brad DeLong. Thanks to the Studs Terkel Archive at WFMT. Story editor: Loretta Williams. Music by Michelle Osis, Lilli Haydn, Chris Westlake, Alex Symcox, and Goodnight, Lucas. Music consulting by Joe Augustine of Narrative Music. "Capitalism” is a production of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University, in partnership with Imperative 21. 
>
>
> Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices
  • Show notes link:: open website
  • Tags: #podcasts #snipd
  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Snips

[13:57] Electoral Politics and Populism

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (12:59 - 13:58)

Electoral Politics and Populism

  • By 1904, political candidates across the spectrum recognized the effectiveness of aligning with the common person’s interests to win elections.
  • This shift in political strategy was influenced by the populist message of William Jennings Bryan, who championed the cause of the working class against the wealthy elite.
  • Theodore Roosevelt, although a Republican, adopted a similar stance, advocating for regulating the economy to serve the public interest, marking a change from previous conservative platforms.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

By 1904, Eric says, candidates from the left to the right saw that if you wanted to get elected, you should side with the little guy, or say you did.

Speaker 3

The Republican Party, for the first decade or so, of the 20th century, is the national home of what becomes known as Progressivism and stands for not overthrowing the capitalist order Or the industrialist order, but regulating it in some semblance of the public interest. And of course, there's a big row where in fact there are a series of rows over what the public interest might be, but there is this generalized notion for which Theodore Roosevelt is an Articulate spokesperson, that the economy ought to be bent to serve ordinary citizens.

Speaker 1

Era. People hungry for progress embraced horrific ideas like

[18:07] Shifting Pendulum of Economic Reform

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (16:33 - 18:09)

Shifting Pendulum of Economic Reform

  • Early 1900s saw corporations improve worker conditions (e.g. Hershey’s, Wrigley’s, Max Factor) while also mass-producing new goods and paying their employees livable wages.
  • Post-World War I, economic prosperity lessened the urgency of working-class demands.
  • By the 1920s, the Republican party under Harding and Coolidge retreated from progressive policies, reducing taxes, deregulation, suppressing unions, and generally pursuing anti-progressive politics.
  • While many Americans enjoyed the economic boom, many still couldn’t afford the consumer goods and relied on loans for purchases like cars and stocks.
  • This marked a shift away from the prior era’s economic reforms.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

The corporations that are churning out new mass-produced machines and consumer goods, Hershey's chocolate, Wrigley's chewing gum, Max Factor Cosmetics, are also taking somewhat Better care of their workers.

Speaker 3

They're creating products for the masses while paying their employees a livable wage with safe working, and a standard 40-hour workweek.

Speaker 1

Again, that's the History Channel series, The Men Who Built America. But pendulums do swing. During and after World War I, economic times were good in the U.S., and the demands for change from the working class got less loud. By the end of the 1910s, says Eric Roushway, members of one major party at least decided the economic reforms had gone far enough.

Speaker 3

And so by the time you get to the national elections in 1920, the Republican party has brought its progressives to heel or at least made them know that they're not particularly welcome In their party. So you have the Harding,, first the harding and then the Coolidge Republicans at the national level, which preside over a retrenchment of much that was identified with progressivism. There's a lowering of taxes, there's a withdrawing from regulation of business, there's a cracking down on unions, and in general the adoption of what we would fairly well recognize As anti-progressive politics.

Speaker 1

The 1920s, yes the roaring 20s, are again a time when a lot

[20:21] Stock Market Speculation in 1920s

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (19:47 - 20:20)

Stock Market Speculation in 1920s

  • In the 1920s, stock speculation became rampant, fueled by a booming economy and easy credit.
  • Arthur Robertson, a stock speculator, recalls witnessing widespread speculative fever, with people like shoeshine boys buying large amounts of stock with minimal down payments.
  • This excessive speculation, driven by hope and fueled by debt, created a classic bubble in the stock market, with prices far exceeding their actual value.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Arthur Robertson, also from the Turkle Archives. He was a stock speculator. Saw people, shoeshine boys, that were buying $50,000 worth of stock with $500 down. Everything was bought on hope. By the fall of 1929, US consumers had run up big debts, and stock prices were

[21:22] Stock Speculation in the 1920s

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (19:47 - 21:27)

Stock Speculation in the 1920s

  • In the booming US economy of the 1920s, widespread stock speculation fueled by borrowed money became common.
  • Arthur Robertson, a stock speculator, recalled seeing everyday people making risky bets on stocks with minimal down payments.
  • This speculative bubble, built on hope and unsustainable stock prices, ultimately burst in 1929, creating widespread uncertainty and contributing to the Great Depression.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Arthur Robertson, also from the Turkle Archives. He was a stock speculator. Saw people, shoeshine boys, that were buying $50,000 worth of stock with $500 down. Everything was bought on hope. By the fall of 1929, US consumers had run up big debts, and stock prices were way higher than they had any business being. A classic bubble. It's a feature of a capitalist economy that it has to grow. If it's not growing, that's a crisis. And if economic activity slows down by a lot, that's a calamity. So capitalism also depends confidence or faith. If a whole bunch of people stop believing all at once that growth is going to continue, well, we know the story. Eric Roushway.

Speaker 3

When it does crash in 1929, and it crashes a couple of times actually, that creates a tremendous amount of uncertainty about what's going to happen next, about which companies are going To prove to be solvent, which are going to fail. It makes people less likely of course to invest. It makes lenders less likely to lend. If you have this economy, both domestic and international, that's built on the continuing lending of money, and all of a sudden people are a little bit more hesitant to lend, you can See how that would slow down other

[23:48] The Great Depression: Peggy Terry’s Perspective

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (22:50 - 23:50)

The Great Depression: Peggy Terry’s Perspective

  • Peggy Terry, in an interview with Studs Terkel, shared her experience of the Great Depression, stating simply, “you were hungry.”
  • She emphasized the difficulty of conveying the experience to those who haven’t lived through it.
  • Terry noted a shared understanding among those she knew that the Depression wasn’t their fault, but rather a failure of the ‘machinery’ of the system.
  • While many blamed President Hoover, she recognized that the economic collapse wasn’t solely attributable to one person.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

And it's really hard to to talk about the depression because what can you say except you were hungry?

Speaker 2

And it's hard to make that sound like anything, until you're that way yourself and then you know.

Speaker 1

Peggy Terry of Oklahoma, talking to Studs Terkel decades later. And back then I'm not sure how the rich felt. I think the rich were as contemptuous of the poor then as they are now, but at least among the people that I knew and came in contact with, we all had a sense of understanding that it wasn't Our fault, that it was something that had happened to the machinery. And in fact, most people blamed Hoover. I mean, they cussed him up one side and down the other. It was all his fault. I'm not saying he's blameless, but I'm not saying either that it was all his fault because our system doesn't run just by one man, and it doesn't fall just by one man either.

[27:12] Political Climate of the Great Depression

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (26:25 - 27:14)

Political Climate of the Great Depression

  • During the Great Depression, Americans sought significant changes to prevent future economic collapses.
  • Some were drawn to the far left, with the Communist Party gaining popularity.
  • Others were attracted to the far right, with fascism rising globally.
  • The U.S. ultimately shifted center-left, possibly due to the conservative government being in power during the economic collapse and thus shouldering the blame.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Eric Roushway says given the severity of the depression, some Americans wanted big changes in the nation's economic and political systems to make sure nothing like this could happen Again. For some, the changes they hoped for were inspired by the far left. The Communist Party reached the peak of its popularity in the U.S. In the 1930s. For others, says Eric Roushway, the attraction was the far right.

Speaker 3

I mean, you know, fascism is on the rise throughout the world in 1932. Adolf Hitler comes to power at almost the same time as Franklin Roosevelt, and that's another direction that could be taken in reaction to this sense of civilization failing.

Speaker 1

Many historians asked why the United States moved to the center left in response to the Great Depression instead of the far right.

[27:54] US Political Shift Post-Depression

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (26:25 - 27:54)

US Political Shift Post-Depression

  • The Great Depression’s severity pushed Americans to desire significant economic and political system changes.
  • Some were inspired by the far left (Communist Party’s peak popularity), while others leaned towards the far right (fascism’s rise).
  • Historians debate why the US shifted center-left instead of far-right, citing factors like the incumbent conservative government taking blame for the collapse.
  • Roosevelt’s 1932 landslide victory gave him a mandate for change, leading to programs like the CWA, WPA, CCC, NRA (National Recovery Admin.), farm subsidies, public works, banking regulations, and later additions to the safety net (Social Security and welfare) along with major new labor laws.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Eric Roushway says given the severity of the depression, some Americans wanted big changes in the nation's economic and political systems to make sure nothing like this could happen Again. For some, the changes they hoped for were inspired by the far left. The Communist Party reached the peak of its popularity in the U.S. In the 1930s. For others, says Eric Roushway, the attraction was the far right.

Speaker 3

I mean, you know, fascism is on the rise throughout the world in 1932. Adolf Hitler comes to power at almost the same time as Franklin Roosevelt, and that's another direction that could be taken in reaction to this sense of civilization failing.

Speaker 1

Many historians asked why the United States moved to the center left in response to the Great Depression instead of the far right. Say dumb luck was a key factor. A conservative government was in power when the economy collapsed so the right wing took the blame. Roosevelt wins a sweeping victory in November 1932 and he's sworn in the following march with a mandate. Do something. His administration launches a blizzard of programs with three and four letter acronyms. The CWA, WPA, CCC, the NRA, not the gun lobby, the National Recovery Administration, subsidies for farmers, public works programs that put people to work, bank restrictions and

[28:43] Roosevelt’s Center-Left Approach

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (27:15 - 28:40)

Roosevelt’s Center-Left Approach

  • During the Great Depression, while some Americans sought extreme solutions from the far left or far right, the US moved towards the center-left.
  • This was partly due to the conservative government being in power during the economic collapse, leading to them shouldering the blame.
  • Roosevelt’s subsequent win and the ‘do something’ mandate allowed him to implement programs that addressed various issues, including unemployment, financial insecurity, and workers’ rights.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Say dumb luck was a key factor. A conservative government was in power when the economy collapsed so the right wing took the blame. Roosevelt wins a sweeping victory in November 1932 and he's sworn in the following march with a mandate. Do something. His administration launches a blizzard of programs with three and four letter acronyms. The CWA, WPA, CCC, the NRA, not the gun lobby, the National Recovery Administration, subsidies for farmers, public works programs that put people to work, bank restrictions and deposit Insurance to protect people's money, a little later huge additions to the safety net, social security to address rampant poverty among older Americans, and cash welfare for needy Families, and major new labor laws guaranteeing workers the right to organize and bargain collectively. Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States.

Speaker 3

My friends, since my annual message to the Congress on January 4th last...

Speaker 1

In radio broadcasts billed as fireside chats, Roosevelt spoke to the American people in frank detail, explaining his plans and the pragmatic philosophy behind them.

Speaker 4

In our effort for recovery,

[33:35] Markets and Societal Needs

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (32:09 - 33:44)

Markets and Societal Needs

  • Markets are essential for wealth creation because they crowdsource solutions to problems, incentivized by financial reward.
  • The fall of the Iron Curtain revealed that centrally planned economies without markets were significantly less prosperous than comparable market economies.
  • However, markets only address problems that can generate profit, prioritizing needs based on a combination of intensity and wealth, neglecting those without wealth.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

First, he says, a solid majority of people with influence are convinced that markets really are essential to producing wealth and prosperity because they create a system of crowdsourcing. Markets invite anyone and everyone to figure out the solutions to problems with the possibility of financial reward, rather than assigning that job, say, to a group of bureaucrats. DeLonge says the 20th century bears this out.

Speaker 4

When the Iron Curtain fell in 1990, and we could look around, we discovered that those countries on the Soviet side of the Iron Curtain that had tried to run an economy without the market System, to help coordinate and crowdsource, that they really were only about one fifth as rich as the market economies the capitalist market economies that were otherwise very similar To them places that indeed had been similar before the division of Europe and Asia that produced the Cold War had been you know that Southern China only one fifth as rich as Thailand, You know, and so on and so forth. East German only won fifth as West Germany. You know, so we need the market.

Speaker 1

At the same time, DeLong says, lots of people see that the market doesn't work its magic on all human problems, but only those that lend themselves to serious profit making.

Speaker 4

That you only exist to the market if you can show them the money. And so what the market sees, what the market really sees, is it sees the intensity of need by a person multiplied by their wealth.

[35:08] Market Unfairness

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (33:31 - 35:13)

Market Unfairness

  • Markets primarily respond to needs backed by purchasing power.
  • Those without wealth are largely ignored by the market.
  • Survival within a market system depends on perceived usefulness and employability.
  • Brad DeLong emphasizes the inherent unfairness of capitalist markets, where rewards aren’t based on merit or need, but often on luck, skill, timing, or even unscrupulous behavior.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 4

You only exist to the market if you can show them the money. And so what the market sees, what the market really sees, is it sees the intensity of need by a person multiplied by their wealth. And that's what it aims to satisfy. You know, no wealth, the market doesn't care about you. And you can survive only if the market thinks you're useful enough to be worth hiring and paying.

Speaker 1

It's an undeniable fact about capitalist markets, Delong says, that they're unfair. They lavish financial rewards, not on the people who are most deserving or most in need, but on.

Speaker 4

The people who have been lucky or somewhat skillful or just in the right place at the right time, or kind of unscrupulous, enough to have managed to grab stuff.

Speaker 1

The never-ending argument then is what to do about all of the above. Crystallizes the debate by focusing on two economic thinkers, both born in Austria, both influential in the middle of the 20th century. First, that champion of markets, Friedrich von Hayek. Hayek said that inequality, however extreme it might get, is the price a society should willingly pay for freedom.

Speaker 4

Hayek said, that's the best we can do. If we try to accomplish social justice, in addition to market prosperity, well, you know, often the social justice won't be too just. It'll just be what one particular group thinks is good. And that may be very bad from everyone else's perspective.

[36:00] Hayek’s View on Inequality

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (34:39 - 36:00)

Hayek’s View on Inequality

  • Friedrich von Hayek argued that inequality is the unavoidable price of freedom in a market economy.
  • Attempting to achieve social justice alongside market prosperity would likely lead to unjust outcomes, determined by the preferences of a particular group, potentially harming everyone else.
  • Such interventions, according to Hayek, would also undermine the market’s ability to function effectively.
  • He believed that prioritizing social justice would lead to a form of “industrial serfdom” lacking both prosperity and true justice.
  • Hayek’s stance positions market efficiency as paramount, even at the cost of significant social inequality.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

First, that champion of markets, Friedrich von Hayek. Hayek said that inequality, however extreme it might get, is the price a society should willingly pay for freedom.

Speaker 4

Hayek said, that's the best we can do. If we try to accomplish social justice, in addition to market prosperity, well, you know, often the social justice won't be too just. It'll just be what one particular group thinks is good. And that may be very bad from everyone else's perspective. And also it'll destroy the market's ability to do its job. So I quote from Job here, right, that the market giveth, the market taketh away, blessed be the name of the market. That Hayek thinking that was the only gospel that we could afford to believe in and anything else would put us on the road to serfdom, to some form of industrial serfdom in which we would Have neither social justice nor prosperity.

Speaker 1

Which brings us to the other Austrian-born thinker.

Speaker 4

You know opposed to Friedrich Hayek, there indeed is Karl Polanyi saying that's just not going to work, that people will not be happy with a society in which the only rights that are vindicated Are property rights. That people will demand a

[41:28] Post-War Consensus on Social Programs

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (40:17 - 41:27)

Post-War Consensus on Social Programs

  • In the post-World War II era, a strong consensus emerged among US politicians and business leaders supporting the New Deal social programs.
  • President Eisenhower acknowledged the public’s unwavering belief in the government’s responsibility for social welfare.
  • He warned that any party attempting to dismantle programs like Social Security, unemployment insurance, and farm programs would face political oblivion.
  • This consensus highlights the widespread acceptance and perceived indispensability of these programs during that period.
  • Eisenhower considered those who opposed these programs a negligible and foolish minority.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

In those post-war years of shared prosperity, a striking consensus took hold among the political class in the United States, and even a lot of people in business, that the New Deal Order, As it's been called, could not be abandoned. The people wouldn't stand for it. In 1954, President Dwight Eisenhower, a Republican, wrote this in a letter to his brother.

Speaker 3

It is quite clear that the federal government cannot avoid or escape responsibilities which the mass of people firmly believe should be undertaken by it. The political processes of our country are such that if a rule of reason is not applied in this effort, we will lose everything, even to a possible and drastic change in the Constitution. Should any political party attempt to abolish Social Security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political History. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Their number is negligible, and they are stupid.

Speaker 1

Alan, let's bring you in

[44:24] 30 Glorious Years (with caveats)

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (42:42 - 44:26)

30 Glorious Years (with caveats)

  • The “30 Glorious Years” refers to the post-WWII period (mid-40s to mid-70s) of shared prosperity and lower inequality in many capitalist countries.
  • It’s an ironic overstatement, specifically referring to how well capitalist economies worked for a broader share of the population than usual.
  • While a white man with a high school degree could support a family with a factory job, many Black people, Latino farm workers, and women were excluded from this prosperity.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

To all of that. I think of 30 glorious years as slightly ironic in its overstatement, and also as a description of a fairly specific phenomenon. Right? The extent to which capitalist economies were working relatively well for a somewhat broader than usual share of the population.

Speaker 2

When, famously, a white man with a high school degree in the United States could get a union job in an auto factory or steel mill and earn a good paycheck that would support a family and A mortgage and send his kids to college. But at the same time, a lot of Black people were still stuck in deep poverty as sharecroppers in the South, and Latino farm workers were just as poor and dispossessed. For women, the doors to many careers were either closed or just beginning to open.

Speaker 1

Yes and yes. As I said earlier, there were large parts of the world that were not included in this gloriousness either, or were in fact still being exploited to help make all this prosperity possible In places like the U.S.

Speaker 2

We're going to hear more on that theme later in the season in an episode that takes us to West Africa.

Speaker 1

Brad DeLong, the economic historian we heard from here, acknowledges all of these points. He wrote this about that time period. Quote, was closer to material utopia for white guys in the global north than ever before.

Speaker 2

With all of those very important qualifiers, we are talking about a time when within the capitalist world, inequality was less extreme than ever before.

[45:54] Labor Share of National Income

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (44:26 - 45:58)

Labor Share of National Income

  • The labor share of national income measures how much of the total income generated by businesses goes to workers’ wages versus profits for stockholders.
  • This measure rose significantly during the “30 glorious years” in the US, from about 57% in 1930 to around 65% in the 1940s.
  • While an increase from 57% to 65% may not sound revolutionary, this shift of additional profit to workers in those decades funneled trillions of dollars into working people’s pockets.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

And I want to bring up one more way of quantifying this. Statistics can make the eyes glaze over, but there's an economic measure that we don't hear about as often as things like the unemployment rate, inflation, GDP, those go-to economic Indicators for politicians in the news media. Although I did catch this a while ago, the public radio show marketplace being wonkier than some did report on this measure that I'm talking about.

Speaker 4

Next month, the Bureau of Labor Statistics will tell us how much of the income generated by workers' toil actually went to workers in the first quarter of the year. This stat is called the labor share of national income and as marketplace as Nancy Marshall-Gensler explains that...

Speaker 2

The labor share of national income. So of all the income that businesses bring in from sales of their goods and services, how much of that goes to workers as opposed to how much winds up as profits in the pockets of stockholders.

Speaker 1

Number, according to the Federal Reserve, also went up significantly during the 30 glorious years in the United States. In the before times, in 1930, workers took home about 57% of the money that was generated by their labor. 57%. That labor share went up in the 1940s to about 65 percent. Almost two thirds of corporate income was going to workers. It stayed over 60 percent for the next few decades.

[46:36] Labor Share of National Income

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (45:06 - 46:36)

Labor Share of National Income

  • The labor share of national income is the percentage of a business’s income that goes to workers’ wages, as opposed to profits for stockholders.
  • During the “30 glorious years” after WWII, this share increased significantly in the US, reaching over 60% and staying there for several decades.
  • This resulted in trillions of dollars going to lower-income individuals.
  • However, around 1975, the labor share began to decline, returning to levels similar to the pre-WWII era.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 4

This stat is called the labor share of national income and as marketplace as Nancy Marshall-Gensler explains that...

Speaker 2

The labor share of national income. So of all the income that businesses bring in from sales of their goods and services, how much of that goes to workers as opposed to how much winds up as profits in the pockets of stockholders.

Speaker 1

Number, according to the Federal Reserve, also went up significantly during the 30 glorious years in the United States. In the before times, in 1930, workers took home about 57% of the money that was generated by their labor. 57%. That labor share went up in the 1940s to about 65 percent. Almost two thirds of corporate income was going to workers. It stayed over 60 percent for the next few decades. Well into the 1970s.

Speaker 2

You know, that doesn't sound like a huge increase from 50 some percent to 60 some percent. But the result over those decades was trillions of dollars in the pockets of people at the bottom percent of the income scale. That's money that would have gone to the wealthiest folks without those more progressive policies that reduced inequality. And then guess what? Starting in about 1975, the labor share of national income went down and down until now. Things are more like they were back in the days of Herbert Hoover.

Speaker 1

But again, that's the story of the next

Ask a Marxist - Part I (w/ Harvey Kaye)

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Show notes > Frank is joined once again by author, professor, and MVC all-star Harvey Kaye for a special episode: Ask a Marxist. In this episode, Harvey tackles listener questions, covering everything from debunking capitalist myths to recommended reading for those beginning their Marxist journey. (Rivka is on vacation but will return for part two.)"
>
> The New Economic Bill of Rights - Comic Strip (Common Dreams)
> We will be posting the full reading list from this episode on our Patreon Page.  
>
> For next week, we'll be watching Richard Linklater's 1991 debut feature, Slacker.
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> 🤝 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PATREON 🤝
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> www.patreon.com/movies_vs_capitalism
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> MVC donates its ad space to progressive or leftist causes and organizations. If you’re interested in promoting your work, email us at [email protected].
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> Artwork by Rufus Paisley | Theme song by JustBen
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  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Snips

[15:54] Marxist Sensibility

🎧 Play snip - 19sec️ (15:34 - 15:54)

Marxist Sensibility

  • Harvey Kaye avoids theoretical concepts and labels like “Marxist” or “historical materialism” due to the negative connotations and pre-conceived notions they evoke.
  • However, his work is still fundamentally informed by Marx and Gramsci’s theories and sensibility.
  • This underlying sensibility can be summarized by Marx’s quote: “The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.”

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Harvey Kaye

I mean, I generally like there's another term I generally avoid historical materialism. Okay, but I can tell you, I can tell you in one line of Marx, what I think is a sort of fundamental sensibility and understanding that I bring to political and historical thinking and criticism, Everything else. The history of all hitherto existing society

[32:35] Marx vs Lenin on Workers’ Role

🎧 Play snip - 10sec️ (32:26 - 32:36)

Marx vs Lenin on Workers’ Role

  • Marx believed intellectuals play a role but don’t hold all the truth about achieving socialism.
  • He envisioned a dialectic process where even educators need education, implying a collaborative learning approach with the workers.
  • Lenin, conversely, advocated for a vanguard party that possessed the truth and guided the workers.
  • Lenin felt workers alone could, at best, achieve trade unionism, not socialism.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Harvey Kaye

Lenin had a different understanding than did Marx. Marx believed that intellectuals had a role, but they didn't bear the truth unto themselves.

[58:25] Dialectics in Jewish Culture

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (57:21 - 58:26)

Dialectics in Jewish Culture

  • The Jewish intellectual tradition emphasizes argumentation as a creative process.
  • The saying “Two Jews, three positions” illustrates how a proposition (thesis) inherently contains its contradiction (antithesis).
  • This confrontation of ideas can lead to a new, more advanced idea (synthesis), or it may go nowhere.
  • The synthesis might combine elements of both thesis and antithesis, or it could be something entirely new.

📚 Transcript

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Harvey Kaye

Now, what did that get at? That got at this. So somebody lays out an argument about something or a proposition. That proposition, if it's a proposition, has a contradiction, has a counter argument. A thesis. A thesis and an antithesis, right? An antithesis. So a thesis is rendered by its very being that thesis brings into being its own antithesis, its contradiction. Now, it is possible that the confrontation of ideas will go nowhere. But it's also quite possible that out of that confrontation of ideas, that argument, a new idea may well emerge will be better or more advanced or will take us further in understanding The world or whatever it is we're arguing about the way they often put it is sure thesis antithesis synthesis synthesis yeah okay now the way synthesis implies elements from thesis And antithesis

[01:01:29] Capitalism Creates its Own Grave Diggers

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (59:58 - 01:01:32)

Capitalism Creates its Own Grave Diggers

  • Capitalists become capitalists by employing workers and making a profit.
  • They control the product of the workers’ labor and exploit them to create surplus.
  • This exploitation is built into the system, and eventually, it leads to conflict.
  • As capitalism develops, more workers become aware of their shared interests.
  • They organize, and through class struggle, they may overcome the capitalist system.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Harvey Kaye

And what they're doing is they are employing workers for their labor. And for capitalists to survive in now, we'll say, in that market economy, they have to make sure that they make a profit. They have whatever the value that is produced by workers, okay, the capitalist expropriates or appropriates that from the workers. Better yet, workers do not decide what happens to what they produce. The capitalists do. And in the course of capitalists selling the product of workers' labor, okay, is where capitalism is a process of exploitation. Now, it's also the case that there always has to be surplus, even if you're lived in socialism. You've got to produce more than you consume. That's a fundamental. Otherwise, you can't have babies or you can't take care of people who themselves can't work. But this is the point. As capitalism develops, the numbers of workers expand. Peasants are displaced from the countryside. They come into the cities. They're employed not simply in workshops, but in factories. The dialectic is this. When workers enter into factories, it doesn't take long for the, it's automatically a situation in which of exploitation, that exploitation inevitably gives rise to conflict. And in fact, so the dialectic is that capitalism, as it emerges, brings into being its, as Marx said, its own grave diggers, the workers, whose development

[01:02:30] Capitalism’s Dialectic

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:01:04 - 01:02:30)

Capitalism’s Dialectic

  • Capitalism inherently creates its own opposition through exploitation of workers.
  • As capitalism grows, so does the working class, leading to increased organization and conflict.
  • This struggle, according to Marx, could eventually lead workers to overthrow capitalism in favor of socialism, where the economy is democratically controlled by working people.
  • This process of inherent conflict and change is the dialectic of capitalism.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Harvey Kaye

The dialectic is this. When workers enter into factories, it doesn't take long for the, it's automatically a situation in which of exploitation, that exploitation inevitably gives rise to conflict. And in fact, so the dialectic is that capitalism, as it emerges, brings into being its, as Marx said, its own grave diggers, the workers, whose development in the course of the class Struggle may well involve organizing. And eventually, his argument is that workers across the country will organize, come to see their shared interests, and understand that for them to be able to truly thrive, to not just Feel, but not to experience exploitation, they've got to overthrow capitalism or undo it by some process in favor of socialism. And I just want to make this one statement, and we can always talk about it another time people say well what really is socialism well you can define it dictionary like way it's you know Collective ownership of the means of production or the state ownership or public ownership but ultimately it's when the struggle for democracy is so effective that the economy itself Is subject to democratic control by working people. Okay. So I don't know

[01:04:06] Marxism and Materialism

🎧 Play snip - 20sec️ (01:03:46 - 01:04:06)

Marxism and Materialism

  • Materialism in Marxist theory isn’t limited to the economy.
  • It emphasizes social relations of production, encompassing law.
  • Law is essential for capitalism because it governs enterprise operations and labor relations.
  • Marx’s materialism builds upon and transforms Hegel’s idealism.
  • The concept emphasizes social factors, including legal frameworks, rather than solely economic or technological determinism.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Harvey Kaye

Important. People often say, well, isn't Marx just, isn't he just pushing technological or economic determinism? Absolutely not. It's social relations of production at the heart of the materialist question, which necessarily includes law, because law is, without, by the way, without law, capitalism couldn't Exist.

[01:06:33] Marxist Dialectic Materialism vs Hegelian Idealism

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (01:04:17 - 01:06:30)

Marxist Dialectic Materialism vs Hegelian Idealism

  • The Hegelian dialectic is based on the conflict of ideas (thesis vs antithesis leading to synthesis).
  • Marx adapted this to a materialist framework, focusing on class struggle, not just ideas, as the driving force of history (class vs class).
  • The conflict isn’t external but arises within the system itself. For example, within capitalism, the inherent contradictions and exploitation lead to class consciousness among workers.
  • This class consciousness and resulting struggle can lead to various outcomes, from improved working conditions to systemic change.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Frank Capello

Question. Let's say, let's take the French Revolution as an example.

Harvey Kaye

The thesis is that landlord-peasant relations are inevitable. The world in which peasants lived and landlords ruled them and exploited them was inevitable. That's a landlord peasant order. The thesis is feudalism. Okay. Okay. But the peasants, peasants know they're being exploited. They're not stupid. People know, by the way, people know when they're being exploited. Oh yeah. I mean the assumption, which by the way is why I don't buy the Leninist arguments quite often. Okay. People know the question is, what are we going to do about it? Right? Lenin says, well, you need the party to enable that and you need the vanguard of the party. But Marx said, workers themselves will come to understand what's happening and they will come to see, by the way, one of the ways in which workers come to see the possibilities is they See each other and the solidarity that emerges. And that very idea of solidarity in the workplace could well be the basis of socialism and must be the basis for socialism and communism. So the thesis is that this mode of production is inevitable. The antithesis is that capitalists and workers literally are in conflict. The conflict, in essence, you've got capitalism being confronted now by class conscious workers who are perhaps socialist inclined. The antithesis, the confrontation, the struggle. It may only advance to the extent that workers get better pay, get better hours, or it may well be that they win the right to vote. Sure. Not in the workplace, but literally across the country, if you get my drift. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so.

Frank Capello

I hear what you're saying. So thesis is the capitalism, the state is the order as it is. Yeah, capitalism, social relations, the antithesis.

Harvey Kaye

Within capitalism, yes, grows out of, it doesn't stand outside of it, it grows out of the very thesis itself. It ends, the contradiction exists, it emerges.

Frank Capello

The antithesis being, like you said, class conscious workers, intellectuals, the synthesis is class struggle. Yeah.

Harvey Kaye

Does that work? It's Hegel's thing, it's idea versus idea. For Marx, it's class versus class.

Frank Capello

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember when someone explained sort of like the difference to me and like you're talking about Hegelian

[01:05:06] Workers’ Recognition of Exploitation

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:04:35 - 01:05:11)

Workers’ Recognition of Exploitation

  • People inherently recognize when they are being exploited.
  • The challenge lies not in recognizing exploitation, but in deciding on a course of action.
  • Marx believed that workers’ solidarity and mutual recognition in the workplace could form the basis of socialism and communism.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Harvey Kaye

Okay. But the peasants, peasants know they're being exploited. They're not stupid. People know, by the way, people know when they're being exploited. Oh yeah. I mean the assumption, which by the way is why I don't buy the Leninist arguments quite often. Okay. People know the question is, what are we going to do about it? Right? Lenin says, well, you need the party to enable that and you need the vanguard of the party. But Marx said, workers themselves will come to understand what's happening and they will come to see, by the way, one of the ways in which workers come to see the possibilities is they See each other and the solidarity that emerges.

[01:13:06] Capitalism vs. Human Nature

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:12:42 - 01:13:12)

Capitalism vs. Human Nature

  • Some argue that human nature is inherently greedy and that capitalism is simply a reflection of this.
  • They believe that humans naturally fight over resources and are primarily motivated by self-interest.
  • This perspective suggests that collective action and concern for others are unnatural.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Frank Capello

Human nature is just to be greedy. Humans have fought with each other over resources, have warred with each other over resources. And, you know, pretty much everything we do, either collectively as a society or individually, is motivated by greed, by self-interest, because we're all individuals. And like, what are we supposed to do? Think about other people? So what do you say that capitalism is the political and economic representation, or I guess analog of human nature, which is to be greedy?

[01:14:12] Debunking the “Greedy Human Nature” Argument

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:13:25 - 01:14:14)

Debunking the “Greedy Human Nature” Argument

  • Instead of arguing about ideological control when someone claims humans are inherently greedy, ask them about their relationships with friends, partners, or in social groups.
  • Ask if they engage with others purely for exploitation.
  • This makes them realize that human interactions are not solely driven by greed and that human nature is multifaceted and includes things like community and altruism.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Harvey Kaye

And it really is hard to debunk. It's a good point, yeah. So in some ways, rather than come back with the argument, you've been subject to ideological control and all that, you say to them, so wait a minute, you have friends? You have friends? Yeah, I have friends. And they say, well, yeah, exactly, you have friends. Well, do you literally become friends with someone to take advantage of them okay no i oh you say you know you have a boyfriend or a girlfriend okay do you is that relationship strictly So you can take advantage of them exploit them i mean ask them and and unless they're real shitheads they're not gonna say oh yeah oh no i don't do that right say, well, what you're doing Is you're admitting that human nature doesn't reduce simply to that.

[01:21:07] Cooperation is Essential for Progress

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:20:06 - 01:21:09)

Cooperation is Essential for Progress

  • Human nature isn’t solely defined by greed.
  • Cooperation and solidarity are also fundamental aspects of human behavior.
  • Even within capitalism, progress relies on cooperation in various forms, such as labor unions or community organizations.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Harvey Kaye

But the resistance beyond the individual often requires some kind of solidarities, trust in other people. So I guess human nature isn't just all greedy, or we'd all be out to screw each other. And I don't mean in the sexual fashion. I mean, you know.

Frank Capello

Yeah, I sort of answered similarly. I say something along the lines of like, no one has nailed down exactly all of the aspects of human nature and what it entails. In fact, there are many conflicting schools of thought as to what, you know, pure, quote unquote, human nature is. And obviously greed and tribalism is an aspect of it, but so is community and solidarity and collectivism is another aspect of it. And so when it comes to capitalism, I say that capitalism incentivizes and creates imperatives for the worst aspects of human nature, which are like we're saying greed, constant competition For competition's sake, you know, wanting get one over on your competitor or your neighbor, all of that stuff.

S7 E12: Reimagined Economies

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Show notes > In our season finale, we visit with people on two continents who are turning core structures of capitalism on their heads – or, at least, sideways.  
> By John Biewen with co-host Ellen McGirt. Interviews with John Fullerton, Ander Etxeberria, Deseree Fontenot, Corrina Gould, Regan Pritzker, Dana Kawaoka-Chen, Mateo Nube, and Marjorie Kelly. Story editor: Loretta Williams. Music by Michelle Osis; Lilli Haydn; Chris Westlake; Alex Symcox; and goodnight, Lucas. Music consulting by Joe Augustine of Narrative Music. Episode art by Harper Biewen. "Capitalism” is a production of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University, in partnership with Imperative 21. 
>
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Snips

[07:03] Redefining Wealth

🎧 Play snip - 25sec️ (06:40 - 07:05)

Redefining Wealth

  • John Fullerton’s Capital Institute explores the meaning of capital beyond financial terms.
  • It considers various forms of capital, such as natural, social, relational, spiritual, reputational, and built capital.
  • This broader perspective prompts questions about true value and the meaning of wealth for individuals and societies.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Fullerton

The very meaning of the word. So now many people talk about multiple capitals, natural capital, social capital, relational capital, spiritual capital, reputational capital, built capital. And so this was sort of a single word placeholder.

Ellen McGirt

Okay, so it's another way of raising questions like, what do we really value?

John Biewen

And importantly, what does

[08:45] Regenerative Economics

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (08:02 - 08:46)

Regenerative Economics

  • John Fullerton argues that the human economy is a living system.
  • Humans and their tools comprise the human economy, and humans are undeniably living systems.
  • The human economy exists within a larger living system, the biosphere.
  • Therefore, long-term human sustainability requires aligning our economy with natural systems.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Fullerton

Is that the human economy is a living system. And we could have a debate about whether that's a valid assumption. I would argue that the human economy is made up of human beings and their tools and technologies. And human beings are living systems. I don't think that's up for debate. And the human economy is embedded in what we now understand is a vast living system called the biosphere or Gaia.

John Biewen

The next premise, John says, is that there are patterns and principles in how living systems work. And finally, the third premise, that if we want to sustain ourselves for the long term, we must design our economy to align with natural systems.

Ellen McGirt

All right. That

[11:58] Farmers Market as Regenerative Economy

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (11:08 - 12:03)

Farmers Market as Regenerative Economy

  • John Fullerton, after leaving JP Morgan, became an impact investor in regenerative agriculture and permaculture projects.
  • He gave the farmers market as an example of a regenerative economy.
  • It’s not just about buying bread, but also about the relational context of meeting neighbors and chatting, which transforms the experience compared to shopping at Walmart.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Biewen

Let's start with an example that's easy to understand. Years ago, after he'd left J.P. Morgan, Fullerton became an impact investor, investing in regenerative agriculture or permaculture projects.

Ellen McGirt

Got it. Farming in ways that don't pollute, don't deplete the soil, and so on.

John Biewen

When I asked John for more examples, here's what he said. And notice that for him, regeneration is not just about the environment. You know, one easy one for everyone to relate to is the farmer's market.

John Fullerton

And all of the neat things about a farmer's market, including getting outdoors and meeting your neighbors and chit-chatting about something that you had no intention to chit-chat About. So, you know, going to get bread is not just about the bread. So there's this relational context of a farmer's market that

[18:19] Jose Maria Arizmendiarrieta’s Vision for Mondragon

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (16:35 - 18:21)

Jose Maria Arizmendiarrieta’s Vision for Mondragon

  • Post-Spanish Civil War, Mondragon was deeply divided and impoverished.
  • Jose Maria Arizmendiarrieta, a young priest, arrived in 1941 and believed in changing the region from the bottom up.
  • He focused on education and work as tools for personal and societal transformation, aiming to create “a new person.”

📚 Transcript

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Ander Etxeberria

Situation was very difficult here. The town of Mondagon was the town that there were more people killed, not in combat, but because of the bad relation between neighbors. So imagine, before the war, some neighbors, they have bad relation. During the war, they are fighting in different sites. After the war, one of them is going to go to the police station and to say, this person is a communist, and they are going to kill that person. The Franco's regime is going to kill that person. There were many people shot in the town of Mondragon.

John Biewen

All of Spain was in an economic crisis too. Poverty was deep and widespread, though the Mondragon region had an industrial history dating to medieval times, with iron mining and steel making.

Ander Etxeberria

Ariz Menireta was an action man. And at that time he's going to say, the main problem is that the world is a disaster. The world is in crisis. So he said, we are going to change the world. When he says change the world, he means change the region. And if we want to change our region, we usually have two options. One, to change from the top to the bottom. And for that, we have to be here in the power.

John Biewen

But the priest and the people he most wanted to help in Mondragon had no power.

Ander Etxeberria

Or the other option is to change from the bottom up. And for that we have to change people. That was the option of Alime de Arrieta. He said, we are going to create a new person. And to create a new person, I have a tool. Education is a tool to change people. But I have not only one tool. I have two tools, education and work.

[19:52] You Are For The Farm

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (19:27 - 19:59)

You Are For The Farm

  • In the Basque tradition, farms are not simply inherited.
  • Instead, they are passed down with the understanding that the next generation is responsible for its care and improvement.
  • The phrase used, “shou e cheraco,” translates to “you are for the farm,” emphasizing stewardship over ownership.
  • Ander Etxeberria connects this tradition to the cooperative model, where the focus is on long-term sustainability and community benefit.
  • This contrasts with the conventional capitalist view of ownership and profit.

📚 Transcript

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Ander Etxeberria

Born in a farm. And in the Basque tradition, it is very important, the farm. And when the farm is going to pass from one generation to another generation, we don't say, my son, this is for you. But what we say is, in Basque, you are for the farm. It's not the farm for you, but you are for the farm. You are going to take care of the farm. You are going to preserve.

[21:49] Mondragon Cooperatives’ Focus

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (20:16 - 21:50)

Mondragon Cooperatives’ Focus

  • The Mondragon cooperatives prioritize creating and maintaining good quality jobs within their local community.
  • Their goal is to generate wealth and well-being for the community, not just profit.
  • This philosophy stems from the Basque tradition where people are seen as stewards of the land and community, responsible for its preservation and improvement for future generations.

📚 Transcript

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Ander Etxeberria

What? Creating job opportunities, creating good quality jobs. This is a kind of wellness or wealth generator. This is the cooperative.

John Biewen

This philosophy explains a lot about the Mondragon cooperatives. The whole point was to provide a lasting source of life and livelihood for people in this then very troubled valley. Think of John Fullerton's regenerative economics principle, to honor place and community. There was a substantial employer in Mondragon in the 1940s and 50s, that locksmithing factory. But Aris Mendiarieta found it lacking.

Ander Etxeberria

In a conventional company, there are owners, they have all the power. Workers, they have no power. Aris Mendiarieta said, no, no, in the center of the company has to be not the capital, but people.

John Biewen

Not capital, but people. The priest tried to convince local business owners to empower workers, but they said, nah. So in 1956, Arismendi Arieta worked with a group of five young men who he'd helped to get trained as engineers, and together they founded the first cooperative company, making stoves. With the example set, more cooperatives sprouted year after year, and the companies formed symbiotic ties under the umbrella organization, the Mondragon Corporation. Seven decades later, there are dozens

[27:48] Mondragon Corporation’s Solidarity System

🎧 Play snip - 29sec️ (27:28 - 27:57)

Mondragon Corporation’s Solidarity System

  • The Mondragon Corporation supports its member cooperatives by pooling a portion of their profits.
  • This system ensures that struggling cooperatives receive financial assistance from more successful ones, fostering a sense of solidarity.
  • This ‘pooling of results’ has been practiced since 1965 and contributes to the overall stability and resilience of the Mondragon network.
  • The Corporation also holds the network together and provides additional layers of security for the workers.

📚 Transcript

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John Biewen

Holds everything together and provides security for people. For one thing, as Ander explains, the corporation supports the cooperatives that had a down year.

Ander Etxeberria

Cooperatives that earn more money help cooperatives that earn less money. How? With money. Or cooperatives that earn money help cooperatives that lose money. This is something that we do every year. This is called pooling of results.

[29:00] Mondragon Corporation’s Support for Cooperatives

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (27:28 - 28:58)

Mondragon Corporation’s Support for Cooperatives

  • The Mondragon Corporation provides crucial support and security for its member cooperatives.
  • It supports struggling cooperatives through profit pooling, where profitable cooperatives help those with less or no profit.
  • If a cooperative must reduce its workforce, workers have the right to work in another cooperative within the corporation.
  • If no other work is available, workers have the right to receive training to improve their employability.
  • As a last resort, workers can receive unemployment benefits for up to two years.
  • Historically, no worker at Mondragon has ever exhausted this two-year benefit period.

📚 Transcript

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John Biewen

Holds everything together and provides security for people. For one thing, as Ander explains, the corporation supports the cooperatives that had a down year.

Ander Etxeberria

Cooperatives that earn more money help cooperatives that earn less money. How? With money. Or cooperatives that earn money help cooperatives that lose money. This is something that we do every year. This is called pooling of results. And we are doing this since 1965. The only group of companies that are friends in the world that are doing this. So we go together.

John Biewen

This pooling keeps the cooperatives going, as companies, up to a point. A few Mondragon cooperatives have gone out of business when folks decided they weren't competitive anymore and weren't going to be.

Ellen McGirt

So they will put a company to sleep. If that happens, do the workers at that co-op lose their jobs just like they would with any company?

John Biewen

No, they do not. And this is the truly unusual bit. A cooperative actually going under is very rare, but a Mondragon company having to cut its workforce somewhat because business is slow? Not so rare. What happens then?

Ander Etxeberria

If I'm a member of a cooperative and one day there is no work for me, I have the right to work in another cooperative.

[34:01] Worker Ownership at Mondragon

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (31:59 - 34:09)

Worker Ownership at Mondragon

  • In Mondragon cooperatives, workers are owners and have a vote on decisions that affect them, including pay and profit distribution.
  • This contrasts with typical capitalist corporations where workers are seen as expenses and owners prioritize capital over workers.
  • Mondragon’s structure ensures that no shareholders exist who aren’t also workers at the company.
  • The salary limit at Mondragon has a 6:1 ratio between the highest and lowest paid worker (currently around 120,000 annually) while in US companies, this ratio can be closer to 300:1.

📚 Transcript

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Ellen McGirt

A big deal. And here's another big deal. When workers own the company, that overturns a core feature of the usual capitalist arrangement, where workers are listed on the balance sheet as an expense, alongside other expenses Like equipment and the electric bill. And the people making decisions about that line item, whether to cut workers and how much to pay them, are the owners, or people reporting directly to the owners.

John Biewen

But in a cooperative, the workers are the owners with a vote on those decisions that affect them. And in the case of Mondragon, as we've said, there are no shareholders who are not workers at the companies.

Ellen McGirt

Which is huge. If I own shares in a typical capitalist corporation, I get more money, more profit if the workers are paid less and if there are fewer of them. And as a shareholder, I represent the capital in capitalism, which makes me the most powerful person in the equation, much more powerful than any worker.

John Biewen

And the more capital you own, the more powerful you are. Under capitalism, that is. But folks in the Mondragon Cooperatives say, uh-uh. We choose a fundamentally different setup. One more aspect of that different setup, the salary limit. Last time we heard about Triodos Bank, where the highest paid worker in the company makes just nine times the lowest paid employee. Well, at Mondragon, the maximum ratio is six to one. Now, the minimum salary at Mondragon Cooperatives, which is voted on by the workers, is currently 18,000 euros, about $20,000.

Ellen McGirt

So by my math, that means no one in the whole company of 70,000 people is making more than 120K.

John Biewen

My math comes out the same. The cost of living around Mondragon is fairly low. You can rent a decent apartment there for three300 or $400 a

[36:19] Mondragon’s Compromise

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (35:12 - 36:21)

Mondragon’s Compromise

  • Mondragon, known for its worker cooperatives and focus on equality, faces the challenge of competing in a global capitalist market.
  • To remain competitive, some Mondragon cooperatives have subsidiaries in lower-wage countries like Mexico and China, employing around 10,000 workers.
  • This practice, while seen as a necessary compromise to compete with corporations that outsource jobs, raises concerns about adhering to the cooperative model.
  • Mondragon expresses a desire for subsidiary workers to become cooperative members, but acknowledges the difficulty of achieving this goal.
  • This compromise highlights the tension between maintaining Mondragon’s values and surviving in a conventional capitalist system.

📚 Transcript

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Ellen McGirt

Really a different world, isn't it, than the one most of us live in? But that brings up a question. What kind of challenges do folks at Mondragon face in doing business the way they do it, in a world dominated by conventional capitalism? They must have to make some compromises.

John Biewen

They do. The big one, and this does bring some criticism even from some people who really admire the Mondragon model, is this. Some of the Mondragon cooperatives have subsidiaries in other countries, in places like Germany and the United States, but also in low-wage countries like Mexico and China. More than 100 manufacturing plants that employ about 10,000 workers.

Ellen McGirt

Huh. So that's a fraction of the total workforce. About 60,000 people work in the cooperatives in Spain. But still, how do folks at the Mondragon Corporation explain this?

John Biewen

Basically as a necessity, as they try to balance their cherished worker co-op model with the need to survive as businesses in the world as it is. For

[43:45] Composting Capital and Liberating Land

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (42:57 - 43:55)

Composting Capital and Liberating Land

  • In the East Bay Hills outside Oakland, a group of organizations is working to “compost capital” and “liberate land.”
  • The area was a logging town in the 1860s, and all the old-growth trees were cut down in about six years.
  • Desiree Fontenot, co-director of Movement Generation Justice and Ecology Project, is leading a walk through the 43-acre property.
  • Movement Generation is a grassroots group based in the Bay Area that promotes a just transition to a regenerative economy.
  • The property is part of the legacy of land theft through the Homestead Act of the 1860s.

📚 Transcript

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Ellen McGirt

Met up in the hills just outside of Oakland with a small group of people representing a cluster of organizations.

Speaker 5

Watch out for the coyote poop. They're very active.

Ellen McGirt

You could say these folks have joined forces to compost some capital. And as they would say, to liberate some land.

Speaker 5

And this area was a logging town in the 1860s, so all the old growth here were like cut down in a matter of like six years.

John Biewen

Leading us on this walk is Desiree Fontenot, co-director of Movement Generation Justice and Ecology Project. Movement Generation, the MG Desiree referred to, is a grassroots group based in the Bay Area that works to promote a just transition from an extractive economy to what it calls a living, Or yes, regenerative, economy.

Ellen McGirt

The property we're on is 43 acres of hilly land, much of it wooded.

[49:55] Philanthropy Reinvented

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (49:06 - 49:59)

Philanthropy Reinvented

  • Regan Pritzker, through her Catali Foundation, is going beyond traditional philanthropy by redistributing her family’s wealth.
  • This involves partnering with groups like Justice Funders to support community-led projects and model a new economy.
  • Dana Kawaoka-Chen of Justice Funders explains that conventional philanthropy is a product of capitalism and relies on inequity.
  • Pritzker’s approach challenges this system by seeking to redistribute wealth extracted from land and labor and held by a few families.
  • This model represents a more radical approach, moving away from standard charitable giving to a more transformative partnership.

📚 Transcript

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Ellen McGirt

Surface, this might sound like a typical charity story. A rich person donates money to a cause she believes in. But those involved in this collaboration say it's something very different and much more radical.

John Biewen

To start with, Regan Pritzker and the Catali Foundation are not doing standard issue philanthropy, says Dana Kawaoka-Chen, who is also part of the entourage in the East Oakland Hills. Dana is co-executive director of Justice Funders, which partners with philanthropists to reimagine what they can do with their money.

Ellen McGirt

Philanthropy is currently a product of capitalism, right? Capitalism as a system is a system that requires inequity in order to proliferate. So capitalism and philanthropy are totally intertwined

[54:46] Small Steps, Big Change

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (54:24 - 54:57)

Small Steps, Big Change

  • While acknowledging the vastness of the capitalist system, activists argue that small, localized actions can contribute to systemic change.
  • Matteo Nube emphasizes that the scale of the challenge doesn’t necessitate equally large responses.
  • Instead, numerous smaller projects, like land rematriation initiatives, can collectively challenge the dominant economic model.
  • These interconnected efforts create a network of resistance, preparing for larger-scale transformation when the opportunity arises.
  • This approach offers a practical path towards building a post-capitalist world through incremental, yet impactful, actions.

📚 Transcript

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Ellen McGirt

That's a fair concern. But the folks we interviewed in the Bay Area have an answer. Matteo Nube, a co-director of Movement Generation, says just because the challenge is huge, that doesn't mean each response needs to be.

John Fullerton

We are envisioning a world where there are a thousand or five thousand land rematuration projects happening within reach of each other. We need visionary projects working together in concert that are oppositional to the dominant economy that is killing us all.

[01:00:18] Democratic Economy

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (59:12 - 01:00:19)

Democratic Economy

  • Marjorie Kelly argues for a ‘democratic economy’ designed for people and planet to flourish.
  • This goes beyond traditional socialism and focuses on power and ownership.
  • It suggests a need for more worker-owned businesses.
  • It shares similarities with John Fullerton’s ‘regenerative economy’, but emphasizes power dynamics.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Ellen McGirt

The Democracy Collaborative, the phrase we like to use is a democratic economy. We live in a democratic society. We need a democratic economy.

John Biewen

Kelly spent decades as a business journalist promoting a more ethical brand of capitalism until she concluded that the system is inherently and hopelessly extractive and exploitative.

Ellen McGirt

I would definitely say I'm anti-capitalist.

John Biewen

She argues, by the way, that democratic economics, small d, of course, is a bigger and more contemporary idea than socialism.

Ellen McGirt

I admire socialism. I think there's a lot there that we need. But I reject the idea that our choices are binary, that it's either capitalism or socialism. So what does Marjorie mean by a democratic economy?

John Biewen

You know, it's broadly consistent, I would say, with what John Fullerton and other folks mean by a regenerative economy.

Ellen McGirt

A democratic economy is designed for people and planet to flourish. That's what

S7 E10: The Extracted

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Episode metadata

Show notes > A visit to West Africa and Western Europe to look at the cocoa trade. Did the colonial side of early capitalism – Western countries getting rich at the expense of poorer nations – ever change, or does it continue today? 
> Reported by Ugochi Anyaka-Oluigbo and written by Ugochi and Loretta Williams, with co-hosts John Biewen and Ellen McGirt. Story editor: Loretta Williams. Mixed by John Biewen. Interviews with Achike Chude, Chernoh Bah, Bart Van Besien, and others. Music by Michelle Osis, Lilli Haydn, Chris Westlake, Alex Symcox, and Goodnight, Lucas. Music consulting by Joe Augustine of Narrative Music. "Capitalism” is a production of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University, in partnership with Imperative 21. 
>
>
> Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices
  • Show notes link:: open website
  • Tags: #podcasts #snipd
  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Snips

[07:24] Post-Colonial Ties and the English Language Test

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (05:54 - 07:32)

Post-Colonial Ties and the English Language Test

  • Ugochi Anyaka-Oluigbo discusses the lingering effects of colonialism, noting the financial burden imposed on Africans seeking access to education and travel in former colonial powers.
  • She points out the irony of English language tests required for Africans from former British colonies, despite English being widely spoken due to British influence.
  • The cost of these tests is exorbitant, exceeding double the Nigerian minimum wage, generating substantial revenue for the UK government.
  • Even after passing, the test results expire after two years, requiring repeated testing, highlighting the subtle yet persistent power dynamics in the post-colonial world.
  • Some English-speaking countries are exempt, but none of the 28 English-speaking African countries colonized by Britain are among them.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

I mean, in many ways, it seems like there are mighty fingers from outside whose support is needed before important decisions that affect my country can be taken.

John Biewen

So fingers belonging to people in Europe or the United States.

Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

That's right. Sometimes those ties are obvious, like in the extraction of minerals to serve the needs of rich foreign countries, and the wars, destruction, and death that are scramble for these Resources, of course. But some others are quite subtle. A couple of real sore points for Africans. One is the amount of money we have to pay just to cross the borders of the EU, the UK and the US. In 2023 alone, the EU took in 130 million euros from rejected applications, not all applications, just applications, with people from Africa and Asia paying 90% of that amount.

John Biewen

Ouch. You've also talked about this thing where if you, as an African, from a former British colony, if you want to attend a university in the UK or some other English-speaking country, including The US, you have to take a test to prove you can speak English?

Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

And the cost of taking that test is more than double the Nigerian minimum wage. The UK government took in almost 800 million US dollars from the language exam between 2016 and 2021. And even if you pass it, like myself, I have to take it again every two years to prove that I can still speak English. So

[06:45] Visa Costs for Africans

🎧 Play snip - 20sec️ (06:27 - 06:48)

Visa Costs for Africans

  • Africans face high costs for visas to enter the EU, UK, and US.
  • In 2023, the EU collected €130 million from rejected visa applications alone.
  • Africans and Asians paid 90% of this amount.
  • This financial burden adds to existing post-colonial tensions and barriers for Africans.

📚 Transcript

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Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

Couple of real sore points for Africans. One is the amount of money we have to pay just to cross the borders of the EU, the UK and the US. In 2023 alone, the EU took in 130 million euros from rejected applications, not all applications, just applications, with

[12:23] Tragic Journey of Fatih and Patu

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (10:21 - 12:23)

Tragic Journey of Fatih and Patu

  • Fatih and Patu attempted a dangerous journey to Europe to secure a better future for their daughter, Marie.
  • Despite multiple failed attempts, they decided to try again in 2023 to cross the Tunisian desert.
  • Tragically, after being expelled by Tunisian authorities, the family faced dire conditions in the desert.
  • Pato sacrificed himself, urging Fatih to take Marie to safety, but both Fatih and Marie ultimately perished from thirst.
  • Pato survived and was rescued weeks later, only to mourn the loss of his family.

📚 Transcript

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Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

Mm-hmm. The same week that they set out, the Tunisian government signed an agreement with the European Union to stem what they call irregular migration and began violently expelling immigrants From African countries. When the family finally made it to the Tunisian city of Ben Gaden, police arrested them, then handed them over to border guards who took the family back into the desert with no water or Food in 100 degree heat. The father Pato who was very exhausted at this point thought he couldn't go any further so he asked Fatih to push on with Marie to at least save their child. Sadly Pato would never meet his wife and daughter again alive or dead. Both Fatih and Maria died of thirst in the desert, Maria lying close to her dead mother. You know, as a mother, I just could not imagine the deep cry of a thirsty child and the pain of a mother who could do absolutely nothing for her dying child.

Ellen McGirt

What a terrible story of these pointless deaths. But Pato survived? Yes, yes.

Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

He was eventually rescued by two Sudanese men who gave him water. Three weeks after the death of his wife and daughter, he got the chance to see their final resting place, a cemetery in the west of Libya. But really, the question is, why do Fatih and Pato and so many others like them feel they have to flee their homes in search of a better life in countries that are, you know, not as rich in

John Biewen

Resources as their own? You went to Cote d'Ivoire, Ivory Coast, to a lot of us Yanks, to find answers.

Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

Take it away, Ugochi. Fatih's home country, Cote d'Ivoire, is the largest exporter of cocoa beans in the world. Globally, chocolate is a $140 billion industry. Most

[23:22] Hardships of Cocoa Farmers

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (21:56 - 23:22)

Hardships of Cocoa Farmers

  • Ugochi Anyaka-Oluigbo met Yao Adelin, a 37-year-old cocoa farmer in West Africa, who works on a cacao farm with her 3-year-old daughter.
  • Adelin expresses the hardships of life as a cocoa farmer, lacking basic necessities like good roads, clean water, and quality education.
  • She desires a better life for her daughter and doesn’t see a future for her children in cocoa farming, echoing the sentiments of other farmers in the region.
  • This situation is common in West African cocoa-producing countries, where farmers struggle despite the industry’s multi-billion dollar value.
  • Cocoa farmers receive only about 7% of global chocolate industry sales, often earning less than $1 a day, placing them below the World Bank’s extreme poverty threshold.

📚 Transcript

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Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

Works on this cacao farm, but says that life is hard here. Just like Fatih, she wants a better life for her daughter. She sees no future here.

John Biewen

If the children stay here, I don't know what they will do. I would rather help them go to school quickly so that they can get a diploma and do something.

Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

Standing here, I can clearly see why they wish for a better life for their children. The roads are bad. There is no potable water. The education here is poor and the farmers cannot meet their own needs. A similar situation exists for farmers in other cocoa producing countries in West Africa such as Ghana, Nigeria and Cameroon. If the cocoa business is a multi-billion dollar industry, where is all the money? According to the World Economic Forum in 2022, the retail and manufacturing sectors garnered almost 80% of the revenue which is telling. Retail and manufacturing of chocolate products happen largely outside of Africa in countries such as the Netherlands, Germany, and Belgium.

[24:51] Cocoa Farmer Poverty

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (23:24 - 24:55)

Cocoa Farmer Poverty

  • Cocoa farmers receive about 7% of global chocolate industry sales, often earning less than $1 per day.
  • This contrasts sharply with the large profits made by major chocolate manufacturers and retailers.
  • For example, in 2023, Lindt, Mondelez, and Nestle together made almost $4 billion in profits.
  • Hershey’s profits reached 160 billion.
  • Cocoa farmers lack the financial tools and negotiating power to protect themselves from market fluctuations and low prices.

📚 Transcript

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Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

Farmers, meanwhile, make about 7% of global chocolate industry sales and often are paid less than $1 a day. Given that the World Bank sets the extreme poverty threshold at $1.90, cocoa farmers are some of the poorest of the poor.

Loretta Williams

Cocoa is a risky business, like most agro-commodities.

Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

Bart Van Bessin is a policy advisor for Oxfam Belgium. In spring 2024, Oxfam published a report on the inequality in the cocoa supply chain. Prices can vary.

Loretta Williams

There can be diseases of the crop. It's hard to predict how much there will be produced. And that's why companies have all kinds of tools to protect against those risks.

Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

Financial tools such as futures contracts allow big trading companies like Cargill to hedge against the swings in the cocoa harvest and sell at a profit. From there, companies like Hershey's turn cocoa into chocolate. The Oxfam report says that in 2023 alone, Lint, Mondelez and Nestle together made nearly $4 billion in profits from chocolate sales. Hershey's candy profits added up to $2 billion last year, and the collective fortunes of the Ferrero and Mars families who own the two biggest private chocolate corporations grew To $160 billion during the same period.

[38:41] West African Revolts Rooted in Economic Oppression

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (37:15 - 38:48)

West African Revolts Rooted in Economic Oppression

  • Recent revolts in West African countries like Niger, Mali, Chad, and Guinea stem from resentment towards former colonial powers, particularly France.
  • These revolts aren’t solely against French influence but also against the imposed capitalist economic system.
  • While the new leaders may still embrace capitalism, it will likely be redefined and implemented on their own terms.
  • The younger generation is tired of the prevailing economic oppression.
  • This is causing protests and military coups in some countries.

📚 Transcript

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Loretta Williams

You're talking about Niger, Mali, Chad, I mean Guinea, then you're talking about France because France was a colonial overlord and they showed their distaste and their disdain for The way the French treated them. And that's why you see this kind of a revolt. It's also not just a revolt against France, but it's a revolt against the economic system that France imposed upon them, which news of military takeovers and protests in a number of West African countries. Is capitalism. Now, that is not to tell you that even the new people that are there are not going to practice capitalism. But even if it's going to be capitalism, it is going to be capitalism on their own terms and under their own definition of what they think that capitalism should be.

Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

Global organizations such as the International Monetary Fund, or IMF, say they exist to promote the health of the world economy. Yet, many believe they are harming the development of the countries where they operate. Chenobar is an investigative journalist at the African East Express and historian based at Brown University in the US. He traced the economic corruption amidst management of wealth in the West African countries of Sierra Lone, Guinea, Liberia and Kosovo. His work shows how African countries through the IMF and World Bank are saddled with debt. Then the solutions to their economic problems are taken out of their hands and given away to foreign companies. The

[44:58] Decolonizing Chocolate

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (43:49 - 45:01)

Decolonizing Chocolate

  • Ghana’s president expressed his intent to move beyond exporting raw cocoa beans and develop Ghana’s own chocolate-making industry.
  • This signifies a push towards greater economic independence and value creation within the country, rather than relying on Western nations for processing.
  • Ghanaian chocolate maker Michael Marmon-Harm, in partnership with a German company Fair Afrique, is trying to decolonize the chocolate industry.

📚 Transcript

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Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

Indeed. The president did not miss words when he mentioned that as a country our intent is to stop sending raw cocoa beans Europe and America for value creation. It is his dream and it is also the dream of the many, many cocoa farmers who live in Ghana to have these beans transformed into at least, if nothing at all, semi-finished products before Exports. Ghanaian chocolate maker Michael Marmonharm has teamed up with a German chocolate maker in an effort to break the monopoly and to make the system more equitable. Their company is called Fair Afrik. They say their goal is to decolonize chocolate. It won't be done overnight. It will take some time before there can be full implementation of this. But at least the president has been clear that as a country, this is our intention and this is the direction we want to go. For now, the world is aware that the two families who own the biggest chocolate companies are richer than the two biggest cocoa-producing nations, Ghana and Kodovua.

[50:39] CFA Franc’s Colonial Legacy

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (48:47 - 50:40)

CFA Franc’s Colonial Legacy

  • Several West and Central African countries use the CFA franc, a currency tied to the euro and controlled by France.
  • This limits their economic independence and is seen as a lingering symbol of colonialism.
  • Critics argue this system hinders economic growth and perpetuates poverty, as these countries lack control over monetary policy.
  • The CFA franc’s origins are linked to compensating French slave traders after abolition, further highlighting its problematic history.
  • Some African leaders are debating decoupling from the CFA franc to gain economic sovereignty.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

Cote d'Ivoire, Senegal and a dozen other countries in Western Central Africa are in what's called the franc zone. The currency called the CFA franc is controlled by France and tied to the euro. Some economists say that this is why countries in that zone can't advance economically. In a fiery interview on Jeanne Afrique, French economist and author Thomas Piketty really reminded the audience that the currency was created after slavery was abolished to compensate French slave traders for their losses. He also described the continued use of the name and currency in 2021 as an anomaly. And for a few years now, some leaders in these countries have been debating whether and how they can decouple the CFA. As you're right, it's seen as a symbol of colonialism. The history and the arguments are quite complex. But the main criticism is that these African countries don't have the monetary and physical independence to run their own economies. And the fact that most of them are so poor and still falling further behind is evidence that a CFA franc is probably not serving them well.

Ellen McGirt

A couple of episodes ago, we heard Esteban Kelly here in the U.S. Talking about the IMF and the World Bank and the role they've played in the Global South since were founded at the end of World War II. Ostensibly, from the perspective of the rich Global North, led by the United States, those organizations were created to help with the development of poorer countries. But as many critics have argued and shown, the policies these lenders insisted on have brought poorer countries into the global economy in ways that really helped to facilitate more Extraction from those countries by the very nations that once colonized them.

[51:28] Nigeria’s Oil Wealth Paradox

🎧 Play snip - 26sec️ (51:06 - 51:32)

Nigeria’s Oil Wealth Paradox

  • Nigeria is Africa’s top white producing country.
  • However, this has not translated to wealth for most Nigerians, particularly those in the oil-rich Niger Delta region, who live in extreme poverty.
  • Major oil companies operating in the Delta, including Shell, ExxonMobil, and Chevron, have caused severe pollution, devastating the local fishing-based economy and way of life that existed for centuries.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

We're the top oil producing country in Africa. But has that made Nigerians rich? Not at all. Most of the people who live in the oil rich region, the Niger Delta, live in extreme poverty. And meanwhile, the main oil companies operating there, Royal Dutch Shell, Exxon Mobil, Eni, Chevron, Wando, and others, have left the Delta one of the most polluted places on the planet. This is where people had an economy and a way of life based

[53:01] Modern Wealth Extraction

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (52:02 - 53:00)

Modern Wealth Extraction

  • Experts debate how to measure the current wealth extraction from the global south by the global north.
  • One study by Jason Hickel and colleagues estimates $10.8 trillion annually.
  • This extraction occurs through mechanisms like using land in the global south for production consumed in the north, rather than for local needs.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Biewen

In our time, experts debate how to measure the amount of wealth extraction still going on between the rich global north and the south one estimate comes from the scholar jason hickle Who we have heard in this series along with several colleagues he did a study on the question they did an analysis of global trade and they estimate that every year the global north drains $10.8 trillion from the global south. How?

Ellen McGirt

Good lord, John. How indeed? So I get it. This doesn't go down the way it did a couple hundred years ago through military conquests, right? But it happens through the kind of exchange we just heard about from Ogochi in the form of chocolate. That's right.

John Biewen

They found, for example, that about two billion acres of land in the global south is used in service of corporations

[52:33] Wealth Extraction Today

🎧 Play snip - 22sec️ (52:11 - 52:33)

Wealth Extraction Today

  • Experts estimate that the global north drains approximately $10.8 trillion from the global south each year.
  • This extraction isn’t through military conquests as in the past, but through economic exchanges and trade practices.
  • The cocoa trade serves as a contemporary example of how wealth continues to flow from poorer nations to richer ones.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Biewen

Estimate comes from the scholar jason hickle who we have heard in this series along with several colleagues he did a study on the question they did an analysis of global trade and they Estimate that every year the global north drains $10.8 trillion from the global south. How?

[53:44] Global North’s Consumption Footprint

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (52:52 - 53:51)

Global North’s Consumption Footprint

  • The global north utilizes a significant amount of resources from the global south, impacting land use and resource allocation.
  • Roughly 2 billion acres of land in the global south, twice the size of India, are used to produce goods for consumption in the global north.
  • This land, if used for domestic food production, could feed up to 6 billion people.
  • The production includes commodities like sugar for Coca-Cola and beef for McDonald’s, highlighting the scale of resource appropriation.
  • This pattern extends to natural resources, oil, minerals, and labor, where large quantities from the global south fuel production for the north.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
John Biewen

Right. They found, for example, that about two billion acres of land in the global south is used in service of corporations in the global north to grow stuff for us.

Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

Now, to put that in perspective, that is twice the size of India. So that amount of land could be used to provide nutritious food for up to 6 billion people if it was mobilized domestically around provisioning food for local populations, but instead

Speaker 5

Is mobilized to produce things like sugar for Coca-Cola and beef for McDonald's in global supply chains with consumption occurring in the global north.

Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

So it's like a huge appropriation of southern land for consumption in the global north.

John Biewen

The same thing goes for natural resources, oil and minerals and on and on, and labor, vast quantities of all of those things in the global south being devoted to producing stuff for those Of us here in the rich north to

[54:19] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (53:04 - 54:21)

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

To put that in perspective, that is twice the size of India. So that amount of land could be used to provide nutritious food for up to 6 billion people if it was mobilized domestically around provisioning food for local populations, but instead

Speaker 5

Is mobilized to produce things like sugar for Coca-Cola and beef for McDonald's in global supply chains with consumption occurring in the global north.

Ugochi Anyaka Oluigbo

So it's like a huge appropriation of southern land for consumption in the global north.

John Biewen

The same thing goes for natural resources, oil and minerals and on and on, and labor, vast quantities of all of those things in the global south being devoted to producing stuff for those Of us here in the rich north to take just one more example look at the mining of cobalt for mobile phone and electric car batteries in the democratic republic of congo and the death and

Ellen McGirt

Destruction that labor leads to and we don't see it as colonialism or imperialism because this is just business, right? People buying and selling stuff and shipping it across the sea or investing in production overseas, employing people in other countries to make stuff for you. But

A Bug’s Life (w/ Ellory Smith)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by 3 time Emmy Nominated writer and comedian Ellory Smith  to discuss the 1998 Disney / Pixar film A Bug’s Life. The trio deep dive into this radical animation, discussing its themes of exploitation and surplus value. They also discuss how the circus bugs symbolize mutual aid, and, in a controversial twist, they ask: Is Flick actually the hyper-individualistic villain of the story?
> For next week’s movie, we’ll be watching the 1995 Robin Williams classic, Jumanji. 
> MVC donates its ad space to progressive or leftist causes and organizations. If you’re interested in promoting your work, email us at [email protected] .
> Artwork by Rufus Paisley  | Theme song by JustBen
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  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Snips

[01:02:53] Mutual Aid Infrastructure

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (01:01:01 - 01:02:53)

Mutual Aid Infrastructure

  • Mutual aid infrastructure is crucial for effective collective action.
  • The ants’ established colony in A Bug’s Life exemplifies this, enabling Flick’s ideas and the circus’s contributions.
  • Mutual aid is often an overlooked aspect of the left.
  • The right is typically seen as more organized.
  • This infrastructure can be activated to achieve different ends.
  • Acknowledge that exploitation is not a law of nature.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Rivka Rivera

Oh, I love all of that. And to tie it back to a bug's life yeah bring it back around girl no but it just made me think about how actually like yes flick is doing all of it but nothing flick none of flick's ideas nothing That the circus really comes up with could have happened without the infrastructure that was the ants that was like what they've been setting up for years and years and years and just Like being you know and that that what he does is kind of like kick it into gear but they're just like you just see it mobilized immediately and that's just when you were talking about mutual Aid I was like right that's why that's so it's not that that mutual aid just developed and reacted um which I think that is to highlight and empower that part of the left, which is not always Talked about or visible or seen, because we can see how we're like, well, the right is so organized, and they've been planning all this shit since Reagan era, and they've been like really 2025 and all this, but like the mutual aid is where it's at, and that's the ant colonies. That's like that then a flick and a circus can come along and activate. Yeah.

Ellory Smith

Use that infrastructure for means to a different end. Yeah.

Frank Capello

Princess Ada says it during when she's pitching the bird speech to everybody. It starts there. She says, if our ancestors could build this entire colony, like imagine we can come together to build this bird together. Truly.

Rivka Rivera

Comparatively. Yeah. You're like the bird's not the bird's tiny but to them it feels so big you know yeah to them it is yeah to them it's so big it also has a lot of mechanics i mean we're getting into like we're

Frank Capello

Getting into aerodynamics with the bird you know there's audio visual stuff happening there's a whole yeah that's true with the with the leaf yeah that's funny yeah did either of you

Ellory Smith

Have anything you want to hit before we go to the awards i'm thinking i mean i think it's a it's a good and simple sort of like centuries-long tale about the

3.3- Resistance to Reform

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Show notes > As power passed from Louis XV to Louis XVI, royal ministers attempted to implement reforms, but were thewarted at every turn.
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  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Snips

[01:27] Enlightened Absolutism vs. Traditional Privileges

🎧 Play snip - 9sec️ (01:17 - 01:27)

Enlightened Absolutism vs. Traditional Privileges

  • In pre-revolutionary France, reform efforts were met with resistance from those benefiting from the existing system.
  • This led to a clash between those advocating for enlightened absolutism and those defending traditional privileges.
  • Both sides had valid points, but their conflict hindered substantial reform until it was too late.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Both were partly right. Both were partly wrong. And combined, they ensured that nothing of great substance was done, until it was wa too late.

[02:34] Enlightened Absolutism

🎧 Play snip - 25sec️ (02:08 - 02:34)

Enlightened Absolutism

  • 18th-century European philosophes, including Voltaire, favored strong monarchies to enact reforms.
  • This contrasts with American Enlightenment figures like Franklin, Jefferson, and Madison, who became republicans.
  • European thinkers believed a powerful executive was essential for modernizing their kingdoms.
  • This concept is called enlightened absolutism where a powerful monarch enacts reforms based on philosophies of the englightenment.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Because as it turns out, most of the philosophs running around out there, including, for example, voltaire, were in favor of strengthening the monarchy, not weakening it. My european friends out there won't find this the least bit surprising, but it's a little off kilter for us americans, because the guys who represent the american enlightenment guyes Like franklin and jefferson and madi, they all wound up republicans. But back in the old world,

[14:08] Mopu’s Failed Reforms

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Mopu’s Failed Reforms

  • Initially, Mopu’s judicial reforms in France were met with resistance, but also relief from some in the legal community who saw them as more rational and equitable.
  • However, Mopu’s heavy-handed tactics and the framing of the reforms as a battle between tyranny and liberty eroded support.
  • After Louis XV’s death, Louis XVI scrapped the reforms, sacked Mopu, and reinstated the parliament.
  • This damaged the monarchy’s prestige and created internal divisions within the parliament between those who resisted and those who had adapted.
  • Ironically, Mopu technically remained Lord Chancellor, as he refused to resign, until the office was abolished in 1790.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

So with each passing year, support for mopu's grand reorganization dwindled, especially because backers of the parliament were, as i said, quite adept at framing all this as a battle, Not between a modernizing ministry and selfish defenders of old privilege, but rather as a battle between a tyrannical ministry and the great defenders of french liberty. When louis the fifteenth finally died in may 17 74, it swept away the last political leg mopu and his allies had to stand on. After a few months, the new 19 year old king, louis the sixteenth, was convinced to scrap the whole reform project, sack mopu and his ministry and retate the arlament to their former Positions. But though the return of the parliament was greeted with great public fanfare, the whole business left everyone just a little worse for the wear. The prestige of the monarchy was damaged by mopu's heavy handed tactics, and the parliament were now divided internally between those in the legal community who had fought the good Fight and those who had tried to reconcile themselves to the new order, leading to petty squabbles when the old order was reinstated. That didn't make anyone look good. One final note on this, just for the sake of historical triviu, is that mopu wound up being the last lord chancellor of france, because when he was dismissed, he refused to resign his Office, and was still technically lord chancellor when the office was abolished by the constituent assembly in 17 90.

[16:11] Physiocracy

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (14:41 - 16:10)

Physiocracy

  • Physiocracy is an economic theory between mercantilism and classical liberalism.
  • It posits that a nation’s wealth is rooted exclusively in land and agricultural labor, not gold or trade balances.
  • While prioritizing agriculture, physiocrats also believed in free markets for manufacturing and trade, opposing guilds, internal customs barriers, and indirect taxes.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Physiocracy was an economic theory that existed in between the dying theory of mercantileism and the rising classical liberalism that adam smith was currently hard at work on up in Scotland. The physiocrats believed first and foremost that the wealth of the nation was rooted exclusively in the land. It wasn't about amassing gold wor having a favorable balance of trade with rival powers. It was about agricultural labor. Everything else was merely a secondary offshoot. But when it came to those secondary offshoots, like manufacturing in trade, the physiocrats further believed that the economy should be as free as possible. So they believed, for example, that the guild system was an anachronism that needed to die, that the web of internal customs barriers was crippling trade, and that all the indirect Taxes on consumer goods hurt the entire commercial chain, from producer all the way to consumer. It was, in fact, one of the leading physiocrats, a guy named vassan de guarne, who allegedly coined the term lase fare, which roughly translates as let do as in, let the economy run itself. So as said, our new controller, general tergot, was into all this stuff. Having fallen in with the physiocrats back in the 17 fifties, tergot began publishing his own works on economics and philosophy. And like many other contemporary philosophes, including his great friend voltaire, contributed articles to the encyclopaedia. But it was his work

[20:49] The Flour War (1775)

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (19:19 - 20:55)

The Flour War (1775)

  • In 1774, Turgot, the French finance minister, deregulated the grain trade, aiming to boost the agricultural economy.
  • The timing coincided with poor harvests in some regions, leading to price spikes as landowners sold grain to areas with deficits.
  • Peasants, accustomed to a “moral economy” where the king protected them from price gouging, felt abandoned by the deregulation.
  • This sparked the Flour War of 1775, with uprisings targeting those perceived as profiting from the grain shortage, including landowners, merchants, and officials.
  • The peasants believed that the king had a duty to prevent such exploitation, and their unrest reflected their disillusionment with the free trade system.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Be better off. Unfortunately for tergot, he launched this project in late 17 74, just as france was being hit by bad harvests, at least bad harvests in some areas and good harvests in other areas. With all the previous restrictions on the grain trade lifted, those with a grain surplus were now free to sell to those with a grain deficit at exactly the kind of premium you might expect. It's called supply and demand. It's new, but you'll get used to it. But it was not just the hard hit areas that paid the premium free of regulation. The landowners with plenty of grain to sell were all too happy to move their entire pply out of the home province to fetch the higher prices. Unless, of course, you'd care to match the price i'm getting over there. The peasants did not take kindly to these sorts of arbitrary price hikes. And though the terminology wasn't around yet, the peasants had a rudimentary belief in the so called moral economy, where the king, as father protector, was supposed to make sure his Subjects were not gouged by unscrupulous profiteers in times of want. So to the average peasant, by following tergo's new free trade system, the king was failing to perform his most basic duty to his subjects. And when that happened, they felt perfectly justified in taking action, which is how we get to the flower war of 17 75. The flower war was a widespread series of uprisings in april and may 17 75, the targeted landowners, merchants, traders, bakeries, royal

[21:15] The Flour War (1775)

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (20:35 - 21:13)

The Flour War (1775)

  • The Flour War, a series of uprisings in April-May 1775, targeted those perceived to be profiting from grain shortages.
  • Peasants believed in a “moral economy” where the king protected them from price gouging.
  • They felt justified in taking action when Turgot’s free trade policies led to price increases.
  • The uprisings were fueled by the “famine pact” conspiracy theory, which alleged that landowners and officials were intentionally withholding grain.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

And when that happened, they felt perfectly justified in taking action, which is how we get to the flower war of 17 75. The flower war was a widespread series of uprisings in april and may 17 75, the targeted landowners, merchants, traders, bakeries, royal officials and any one else who seemed to be Unjustly profiting from the depleted grain supply. These uprisings were driven in part by a reoccurring paranoid fantasy within the peasantry that the price increases could not simply be about abstract laws of supply and demand working Themselves out.

[25:29] Turgot’s Paradoxical Resistance

🎧 Play snip - 20sec️ (25:12 - 25:33)

Turgot’s Paradoxical Resistance

  • Unlike Maupeou, Turgot’s reforms faced resistance not from the privileged but from the least privileged.
  • Enlightened absolutism required a ruler both tough and far-sighted, able to overcome complaints from courtiers and peasants alike.
  • Louis XV lacked interest, and Louis XVI lacked experience and decisiveness to implement these reforms effectively.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

The interesting thing though is that in the flower war, tergot faced resistance, not from the most privileged classes, but from the very least privileged classes. So successfully establishing the kind of enlightened absolutist regime advocated by the philosophs required a king who was as tough as he was far sighted, someone who was willing To

Barbie (w/ Jessie Kahnweiler)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by filmmaker Jessie Kahnweiler for an off-the-walls discussion of Greta Gerwig’s Barbie . They discuss the full-blown cultural phenomenon and how its overall message is emblematic of “plastic feminism.” They offer their conflicting feelings about the film’s success: how it is both a win for female filmmakers but an even bigger win for a toy company. Jessie also talks about her experience being on strike, as a member of the Writers Guild of America (WGA), and what’s at stake for artists in Hollywood.
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> Artwork by Rufus Paisley | Theme song by JustBen
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Snips

[39:27] Nuance Lost on Audience

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (39:01 - 39:33)

Nuance Lost on Audience

  • Some viewers won’t grasp the nuances of a film’s message, such as the idea that patriarchy harms everyone.
  • This can be especially problematic given the tendency for messages to be weaponized, reducing complex ideas into binary conflicts.
  • The ease of weaponization increases the responsibility of artists and audiences to engage with media thoughtfully.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

That are going to take away from this movie certain things and there's some people that are just not going to get it and it's like they're not going to pick up on the nuance and like actually Patriarchy is bad for men.

Speaker 1

You know like actually nobody wins in the patriarchy like these nuances are going to be lost in a lot of people. So what is the responsibility of our audience. Well especially now when people can weaponize everything you know what I mean so easily so it's like when the Ken's weapon eyes yeah totally.

Speaker 4

That's so good.

Speaker 3

Let me just talk about it.

[41:44] Capitalist Realist Theory in Barbie

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Capitalist Realist Theory in Barbie

  • Jessie Kahnweiler found the ‘Barbie’ movie’s message about cognitive dissonance unsatisfying.
  • The movie suggests that by being aware of the contradictions inherent in being a woman, one robs the patriarchy of its power.
  • Kahnweiler relates this to the capitalist realist theory and sees it as an example of performative allyship.
  • It acknowledges the problem, but suggests mere awareness is enough for change, without offering real solutions.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

Like I'm so glad you brought that up and I know I will make room for Frank for for our Ken but I that made me think I wrote that I actually pulled my phone out to write down and I was really interesting

Speaker 4

That it was like they were she was basically saying like by being aware of cognitive dissonance required to be a woman you rob the patriarchy of its power and I was just like that is like

Speaker 2

The capitalist realist theory in a lot of way of like if we talk about it and we say it's a thing that that's enough so like the reference tomorrow when I was a girl Robbie being cast like It's enough that we mentioned

[50:01] Commercialized Feminism

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (48:21 - 50:01)

Commercialized Feminism

  • A film podcast discussed the effectiveness of Barbie’s feminist message.
  • One host questioned if a commercialized, widely-reached message is better than a niche, independent one.
  • Is it better for a feminist message to be in a “pristine Barbie box” or a “grungy indie film?”
  • The discussion considered the trade-off between reach and authenticity in conveying a message.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

And on that one, someone, one of the hosts said she was like, you know, I know that this is just a giant IP commercial for a Mattel product, but isn't it so great that we have this feminist Message in a product that is this big and this commercialized that is going to reach this many people. Isn't that better than this kind of message being in like, I don't know, like a mid tier indie comedy that Greta Gerwig would have made that only like one 100th of the audience would have Seen. Isn't it better that we have this message in this big Hollywood IP film than a smaller movie? And I don't know. And raise that question. I was like, I don't know. Cause like, one is the, is the movies like feminist message strong enough? And two, is it better that it is in this, let's say, you know, pristine Barbie box rather than in like a grungy indie film?

Speaker 3

I can't even pretend to like know what's best for the culture. Like I can only speak in with my whole of you. But for me, it's like the Barbie, um, just the symbol of Barbie of like a skinny blonde will never inherently feel empowering to me. I think it's just like she did the best version of what she could.

Speaker 1

And like, it's not for me to say whether or not it should, should exist. But to me, the thing of like, you know, I was like, fuck dude, I'd rather it have been the cabbage patch dolls.

Speaker 3

At least they had thighs, you know, it just like a little bit, um, or even the American girl dolls big don't, it doesn't personally connotate such, uh, such like dis association with My own body. Like Barbie is never going

[50:38] Barbie’s Message

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (49:04 - 50:39)

Barbie’s Message

  • One of the podcast hosts questions the effectiveness of Barbie’s feminist message due to its commercial nature.
  • They discuss whether this message being in a massive IP film is better than it being in a smaller indie film that fewer people would see.
  • The speaker expresses uncertainty, questioning the strength of the message and whether its association with the Barbie brand diminishes its impact.
  • They suggest the irony of a “feminist” product tied to an unrealistic body image, preferring other doll brands that feel more representative or empowering.
  • The speaker concludes by saying they’d prefer the film to be about another doll that’s less damaging in terms of body expectations.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

And two, is it better that it is in this, let's say, you know, pristine Barbie box rather than in like a grungy indie film?

Speaker 3

I can't even pretend to like know what's best for the culture. Like I can only speak in with my whole of you. But for me, it's like the Barbie, um, just the symbol of Barbie of like a skinny blonde will never inherently feel empowering to me. I think it's just like she did the best version of what she could.

Speaker 1

And like, it's not for me to say whether or not it should, should exist. But to me, the thing of like, you know, I was like, fuck dude, I'd rather it have been the cabbage patch dolls.

Speaker 3

At least they had thighs, you know, it just like a little bit, um, or even the American girl dolls big don't, it doesn't personally connotate such, uh, such like dis association with My own body. Like Barbie is never going to feel empowering to me.

Speaker 1

And I think any attempt to do that is what we got in those side characters who are not real. They're not real women.

Speaker 2

So and maybe it's to your point about like the stream, the, the actual vagueness and some of the storytelling and that it was a lot of really fun jokes. But I was left being like, wait, what was the message? Like what is the feminist met? Like, you know what I mean? And even when people talk about it, they're like, it's a feminist message. I'm like, so what is the message? Do you know what I wish Barbara would have done?

Speaker 1

Like the, the earned whoever the real pro and play like, I wish she would have literally done a doll of what her actual daughter looks like.

Speaker 3

Like we should figure out

UHF (w/ Jade Kim)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by science communicator and YouTube host Jade Kim  to discuss the 1989 “Weird Al” Yankovic comedy UHF . Jade and Frank are HUGE Weird Al fans, and Rivka is… patient. But even though this zany, fantastical movie starring the world’s greatest song parodist and incredible live performer (Frank wrote this copy, FYI), the movie still manages to have strong opinions about the hyper-sensationalism of the modern TV era, the ruthlessness of market competition, and the value of public utility ownership. Also Weird Al rules.
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> For next week’s movie, we’ll be watching the 1971 children’s classic Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.
> MVC donates its ad space to progressive or leftist causes and organizations. If you’re interested in promoting your work, email us at [email protected] .
> Artwork by Rufus Paisley  | Theme song by JustBen
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Snips

[09:30] The Role of Police in Crises

🎧 Play snip - 21sec️ (09:08 - 09:30)

The Role of Police in Crises

  • During crises, police often do little to help with actual relief efforts like supply distribution or firefighting.
  • Their primary response tends to be holding press conferences and threatening intervention against looters, sometimes even hindering residents’ access to their damaged homes.
  • Their focus on crime response rather than prevention raises questions about their effectiveness and resource allocation, especially given how they may actively impede relief efforts during crises.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Frank Capello

And I'm not even talking about just like they don't do much like they don't do anything like they don't help with supply distribution. They don't help bring much needed relief to people. They don't help fight the fires. All they do is hold a gun and say you all better behave or we're going to get involved. So why are they sucking up the absolute

[16:05] Prison Firefighting Propaganda

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (14:35 - 16:07)

Prison Firefighting Propaganda

  • Rivka Rivera acted in a Hallmark film starring Cuba Gooding Jr. that promoted a program where incarcerated women fight wildfires.
  • The film’s narrative centered on the idea that this dangerous work provides these women with ‘selfless service’ and a ‘second chance’.
  • However, the film ignored the fact that these women are not paid for their labor, cannot continue this work after release, and prisons are incentivized to keep them incarcerated longer to profit from these programs.

📚 Transcript

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Rivka Rivera

I had an incredible i mean it was an incredible experience the director is amazing um they actually are quite radical and been an amazing uh voice for. But yeah, the whole, I mean, it was kind of exactly to your point. It was like the whole arc of the story is essentially this gives female firefighters a second life. And he plays the person who starts it. It's like, what does it say? Plays DJ, a counselor at a women's correctional center who dedicates his professional life to helping young people reclaim their own self-respect through selfless service to others. There it is, the selfless service to others. DJ encourages the women to join an elite team that fights forest fires and assists civilian victims of natural disasters. As brave volunteers, the young team members receive a second chance in life. So yeah, there you go. No mention of once they get out, they're not allowed to continue this work that they've built skills in. No. They're putting their lives on the line. They're not getting paid and someone's profiting. But it doesn't matter because in this society, we treat anyone in the prison system as worthless until redeemed through life-threatening work.

Frank Capello

Yep. And I've also now started to see reports, and I should have found this beforehand, but that prisons are now incentivized to extend inmates' sentences or keep them to the longest possible Duration of their sentence because they're making so much money

[31:14] Exploitation of Passion in STEM

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (29:51 - 31:13)

Exploitation of Passion in STEM

  • People in STEM fields, like those at SpaceX, are driven by a deep passion for their work, not just money.
  • This makes them vulnerable to exploitation by figures like Elon Musk, who can leverage this passion to push for intense work with little work-life balance.
  • STEM workers prioritize the mission, often neglecting other aspects of their lives, accepting this imbalance due to their commitment.

📚 Transcript

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Jade Kim

And then seeing that, especially in the sciences, in STEM in general, you have a lot of extremely passionate, hardworking people. But unfortunately, those types of people are very easy to take advantage of and exploit because I like I always like to use SpaceX as an example, because when you go to work building rocket Ships, you're not just doing it because it pays the bills. You know, you're doing it because you have like a hardcore, soul wrenching desire to to see, you know, our civilization go into space. And that is something that you'll never part with. However, when you have these big tycoons like Musk, it's an easy way to kind of, not trick people, but to kind of make them work and completely neglect anything else except work, and they'll Be completely fine with it because they're going towards this big mission. And there's no such thing as like a work-life balance. And they do get paid mostly very well. There's good benefits. But anyways, I don't want to get too into that. But yeah, so that's, there I am.

Frank Capello

No, that's so interesting to hear that. It honestly sounds a lot like arts workers. Rifka and I both went to theater school. And yeah, I think hearing you speak about the way that passion within the science community is exploited by the capitalist system.

[54:48] Class Solidarity

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (54:22 - 54:54)

Class Solidarity

  • Groups of people with a shared purpose, even if misguided like the January 6th rioters, can demonstrate powerful collective action.
  • Billionaires, despite their differences, exhibit the strongest class solidarity, consistently protecting their own interests.
  • This solidarity reinforces the effectiveness of culture war issues, which divide the rest of society and distract from the billionaires’ shared agenda.

📚 Transcript

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Jade Kim

No, exactly. And that's a very good thing to stay aware of, too, because like you said, like January 6th was, I mean, it wasn't for the right thing, but it was a beautiful demonstration of what a group Of people can do when you got them riled up and they have an idea for something. And I think it's been said all the time, but like billionaires have the best sense of class solidarity of any group in the world. And they will always look out for each other, even if they are diametrically opposed in every other way possible.

[57:04] Anti-capitalist Themes in Liberal Art

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (55:36 - 57:12)

Anti-capitalist Themes in Liberal Art

  • Frank observes that even without intending to, liberal art often lands on anti-capitalist themes.
  • He cites Weird Al’s UHF as an example, where the creators weren’t aiming for a political statement.
  • However, the inherent goodness of community and the badness of big business, common tropes in liberal storytelling, often resonate as anti-capitalist sentiments.
  • These tropes are widely understood and appreciated, even by those who don’t identify as anti-capitalist.
  • This suggests a shared understanding of these values, which is encouraging.

📚 Transcript

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Frank Capello

Conversation is making me think of something, especially like in relation to this movie, but I think it also applies more largely to, I don't know, I'd call it, let's say, liberal art Creation or liberal storytelling, which is, you know, we're discussing the anti-capitalist themes of this movie, UHF. But I doubt, in fact, I know for a fact that Weird Al and his manager, Jay Levy, when they were writing the movie, did not seek to write an anti-capitalist, like, you know, an anti-capitalist Fable. They just wanted to find a movie idea that allowed them to just do video parodies with no explanation whatsoever. So they were like, all right, the guy's got to run a TV station or something, I guess. So it's interesting because this, because like we're saying, Al probably doesn't have like a very cohesive or coherent politics. This movie doesn't really have a super coherent politics. But I think it's interesting. I would imagine Weird Al is a good natured person. And we see this like in liberal storytelling often end up landing on something that is close to an anti capitalist theme within their stories. Because I feel like that is something we all inherently understand even if you do not identify as anti-capitalist you know like like and and you know this the story tropes are tropes We've seen in so many movies but it's like stuff that we all inherently understand of like big business bad community good you know people over business good people come together to Beat big business, good. You know, like, these are things we see over and over again. They're

Face/Off (w/ Madeline Pendleton)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by author, content creator, socialist business proprietor, and host of the  Pick Me Up, I'm Scared podcast,   Madeline Pendleton to talk about John Woo’s unhinged magnum opus, Face/Off . They unpack the film’s depiction of the carceral system (magnet boots!), the extreme misogyny that runs through the film, and whether Castor Troy troy had a developed political ideology or was just in it for the LOLs. 
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[16:45] Madeline Pendleton’s Worker-Owned Business

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (15:42 - 16:45)

Madeline Pendleton’s Worker-Owned Business

  • Madeline Pendleton, author and podcast host, runs Tunnel Vision, a worker-centered clothing brand.
  • Everyone at the company, including interns, earns the same daily take-home pay with a four-day work week.
  • They use a break-even business model where profits beyond operational costs are distributed equally among workers.
  • One year, the business had significant profit which was voted by all workers to buy everyone in the company a new car.
  • Madeline aims to have her employees transition to a coop structure in the future.

📚 Transcript

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Madeline Pendleton

Okay, great. So I've run Tunnel Vision for 12 years now. And I have tried various different ways to make it like a worker-centered business. And some of them failed early on. But our current model that we operate from usually gets people pretty interested. The main thing that's different about our business is that everybody who works at the company, from me, I am the legal sole owner, but that's mostly just because it makes it easier for Us to access financing and the other workers aren't ready to merge into a co-op yet, but I tell them they will have to eventually. But yeah, everybody for me is the legal sole owner all the way down to an intern. We all earn the exact same take-home pay per day work. And we have a standard four-day work week, is 28 hours. And we also have a break-even model where we aim not to profit beyond just, you know, there's like a difference in business. It's really boring, but it's gross profit versus net profit. So we do the gross profit, right, which just pays for our business to basically exist. And the net profit is usually what owners would siphon off for themselves as part of

[40:58] Contrasting Patriarchal Approaches

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Contrasting Patriarchal Approaches

  • Castor Troy and Sean Archer both utilize the patriarchy, but in different ways.
  • Archer views his wife and daughter as objects to be protected, demonstrating a control-based mindset that hinders his ability to understand their needs.
  • Conversely, Troy exhibits overt sexual aggression towards women throughout the film.
  • Both approaches objectify women but through contrasting lenses.

📚 Transcript

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Frank Capello

And then has this really supportive community of international terrorist criminal friends. So it does. It does a really good job of sort of flipping these dynamics on their head and making you look at who is writing these labels and and why they get assigned to these different groups yeah

Madeline Pendleton

It is really interesting to see too that uh caster troy when he is wearing the sean archer skin suit becomes a better husband and father than sean archer ever was he listens to his wife His not real wife obviously he pays attention to what she needs he prioritizes her the daughter the teenage goth daughter right he protects her from being sexually assaulted from a Date in a car in front of their house and he gives her a knife and is like this is how you defend yourself so in a lot of ways yeah we see that the bad guy is better at moving through community Spaces than this quote unquote good man is. Now, a thing I picked up on politically, though, that was interesting, is that both utilize the patriarchy in different ways. Both are viewing women as objects. The difference is that Sean Archer, our good guy, he is viewing his wife and his daughter as things to be protected, right? It's a very patriarchal control-based thing. He doesn't see their humanity. That's why he's such a bad husband and father. He can't pay attention to what they need. He just knows that it's his duty to protect them as his prized objects, right? But on the flip side, Caster Troy, the

[41:39] Patriarchy in Face/Off

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (40:23 - 41:41)

Patriarchy in Face/Off

  • Both Sean Archer and Castor Troy utilize the patriarchy, but in different ways.
  • Archer views his wife and daughter as objects to be protected, demonstrating a patriarchal control.
  • Troy is overtly sexually aggressive towards women.
  • The film subtly mocks institutions like the FBI, the US government, and the Church for harboring and protecting bad men, exemplified by Troy’s unchallenged groping of a teenage girl while dressed as a priest.

📚 Transcript

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Madeline Pendleton

Now, a thing I picked up on politically, though, that was interesting, is that both utilize the patriarchy in different ways. Both are viewing women as objects. The difference is that Sean Archer, our good guy, he is viewing his wife and his daughter as things to be protected, right? It's a very patriarchal control-based thing. He doesn't see their humanity. That's why he's such a bad husband and father. He can't pay attention to what they need. He just knows that it's his duty to protect them as his prized objects, right? But on the flip side, Caster Troy, the way he interacts with women throughout the movie is he is just overtly sexually aggressive to all women. There's actually a funny bit in there that seems to be uh kind of mocking the church because castor troy is dressed up as a priest unbelievable shit it's a fantastic scene uh and he's being Vile and grotesque while wearing this like catholic priest outfit to the extent that i he approaches what looks to to me like a teenage girl like a child like a teen definitely a teenage

Frank Capello

Girl. Yeah.

Madeline Pendleton

Yeah. And he like gropes her very aggressively and nobody bats an eye as he's doing this. And to me, that's a nice little aside where you're like these institutions, like the institution of the FBI, the institution of the United States, the institution of the Constitution, The institution of the carceral system, the

[46:44] Narrow Expectations in Mainstream American Society

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (46:07 - 46:44)

Narrow Expectations in Mainstream American Society

  • Mainstream American society has very narrow expectations for behavior.
  • Those outside these expectations are considered pariahs.
  • This relates to the MoMA long leash program where the CIA covertly funded abstract expressionist art during the Cold War.
  • This was done to counter the USSR’s practical, realistic paintings of workers, promoting a different image of American culture.

📚 Transcript

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Madeline Pendleton

But something I think is interesting is how much it showcases that mainstream American society, there's a very narrow expectation of how you are to conduct yourself. And if you do not conduct yourself within this narrow expectation, you are a pariah. And this really makes me think of the MoMA long leash program. What's that? Oh, so the CIA covertly funded abstract expressionist art for years, because it was part of this Cold War technique where, you know, coming out of the USSR, we had these very practical, Realistic paintings of workers doing labor. We had people harvesting

[47:22] CIA Funding of Abstract Expressionism

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CIA Funding of Abstract Expressionism

  • The CIA covertly funded abstract expressionist art during the Cold War.
  • This was a strategy to contrast the USSR’s realistic, labor-focused art with the supposed creative freedom of capitalism.
  • Artists like Jackson Pollock were unknowingly part of the CIA’s “long leash” program, which distanced them from the agency while they received funding.
  • The CIA worked with the New York MoMA to promote this art internationally.

📚 Transcript

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Frank Capello

That?

Madeline Pendleton

Oh, so the CIA covertly funded abstract expressionist art for years, because it was part of this Cold War technique where, you know, coming out of the USSR, we had these very practical, Realistic paintings of workers doing labor. We had people harvesting wheat. We had people doing farming. So the CIA was like, to challenge this, we are going to fund abstract expressionist art. Like Jackson Pollock was unknowingly a CIA asset. He was on the long leash program with the CIA, which basically just meant there were so many steps in between him and the CIA. He was on such a long leash. He did not know that he was being paid by the CIA to make this art. And the reason the CIA did this, they worked in conjunction with the New York MoMA to spread this agenda. They did these international showcases of abstract expressionist art. The idea was that capitalism

[55:39] Male Gaze in Face/Off

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (53:47 - 55:44)

Male Gaze in Face/Off

  • Masculine obsession with perception by other men drives the narrative in Face/Off, with women relegated to objects.
  • This patriarchal overtone reduces female characters to assets, prizes, or incidental bystanders in the men’s performance for each other.
  • The film’s lack of explanation for Caster Troy’s initial assassination attempt on Sean Archer suggests an ongoing, primordial conflict, further emphasizing the male-centric narrative.
  • This dynamic reflects a broader societal issue where men’s actions and motivations are primarily driven by their interactions with other men, while women’s roles are minimized.

📚 Transcript

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Madeline Pendleton

I think this is really interesting though like the um it's like the twitter trend that's like fellas is it gay too and then it's just like the most heterosexual thing ever like um there Was one that was like somebody talking about rihanna being pregnant on the cover of a magazine with like her her dude like walking behind her and this guy tweeted it and was just like seems Kind of fruity to be walking behind your woman like that you know and somebody was like fellas is it gay to get Rihanna pregnant um you know but I think it's like this masculine obsession With how you're perceived by other men it's like women don't even enter your mind as an audience. And that goes along with the patriarchal overtones of the movie. Like the women don't exist. They are objects to be maneuvered, manipulated, controlled. They are assets. They are prizes to be won. And really, yeah, this is just performance of these men for each other, this singular obsession. And we never learn when this obsession started. We don't know why Caster Troy tried to assassinate Sean Archer in the beginning of the movie. That's never explained. For all we know, this vendetta has been going on time in memoriam, right? It's just always been. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and Sean Archer and Caster Troy. Idea of good and evil is replicated throughout the movie too. The final fight scene starts in a church and Caster Troy even references it. Like good and evil constantly in conflict throughout history. So they almost are these like apocryphal kind of deities just intended. Elemental. Elemental. Just intended to be obsessed with each other from the moment of creation until one of them dies. But yeah, it is very, very much speaks to like the male gaze, right? The men are performing for each other at all times and the women are incidental bystanders or byproducts.

[01:02:08] Misogyny in Face/Off

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:01:22 - 01:02:09)

Misogyny in Face/Off

  • Castor Troy’s treatment of women is the only aspect that effectively makes him a villain in the movie ‘Face/Off’.
  • In other areas where the filmmakers tried to portray him negatively, such as his blasphemy or cruelty, he comes across as almost likeable.
  • The misogyny is presented as the crucial element that prevents the audience from sympathizing with his anti-hero persona.
  • Without this element, he would be a fun, likeable character whose desire to blow up LA is even portrayed humorously.

📚 Transcript

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Madeline Pendleton

So I wonder if it's a necessary part of making the audience hate Caster Troy, because it actually is, to me, the only effective thing that makes him not the anti-hero is his treatment Of women. But if you took all of that away, he's frankly too likable.

Frank Capello

Yeah, that's really true. You're absolutely right.

Madeline Pendleton

He ends up being fun, you know, fun, likable guy who just wants to blow up la and even when they present that that that's his goal to blow up la it is like a joke and a side was like who cares La they're gonna get what they deserve and you know the audience for this i can only imagine is like like mainstream america outside of la you're i think they're supposed to relate to That they're supposed to be like yeah fuck L.A. Who cares about L.A.? You know? So, yeah, I think that the misogyny is a crucial tool.

S7 E8: The People’s Pushback

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Show notes > S7 E8: The People’s Pushback 
> Over several decades, a growing number of people in the United States and elsewhere – especially younger people – have turned against capitalism. The reasons are not mysterious. 
> Reported by Lewis Raven Wallace and produced by John Biewen, with co-host Ellen McGirt. Interviews with Esteban Kelly, Josh Bivens, Malaika Jibali, and Evan Caldwell. Story editor: Loretta Williams. Music by Michelle Osis, Lilli Haydn, Chris Westlake, Alex Symcox, and Goodnight, Lucas. Music consulting by Joe Augustine of Narrative Music. 
> "Capitalism” is a production of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University, in partnership with Imperative 21. 
>
>
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[12:01] Suburban Wasteland

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (10:23 - 12:08)

Suburban Wasteland

  • Esteban Kelly describes growing up in suburban Long Island and feeling trapped by the car-centric environment.
  • He points out the lack of sidewalks and the inability to walk to a store, highlighting the dependence on cars and the resulting isolation.
  • This personal experience connects to the broader theme of capitalism’s impact on communities and individuals, where even seemingly comfortable suburban life can be restrictive and alienating.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 2

Here I am growing up in the suburban wasteland of Long Island being like, this whole place is ruined. I can't, I don't even have a sidewalk. I can't walk to a store to get orange juice if we're out of it. I literally was just trapped on my street until I was 17 years old and able to drive and liberate myself and was supposed to feel good about that or something.

Speaker 1

I remember this feeling. Coming of age in the 1980s and 1990s was an immersion in Reaganomics and then Clintonomics. If you lived in an urban area, you saw unemployment and wage stagnation, divestment from neighborhoods and communities, mass criminalization and incarceration. If you lived in the suburbs or in a college town like I did, you saw the aggressive spread of development. And in all of these places, you saw the globalization of trade. All this was supposed to be great and hopeful. But it was confusing. As governments made these new so-called free trade agreements, like NAFTA that Esteban learned about at a punk show, it had real world effects. American factories moved to Mexico and China where they could pay people less. The middle class was shrinking. The whole economy was being reorganized, often at the expense of the most vulnerable people.

Speaker 2

There's so much that could be sold off. There's so many, you know, companies that can be shut down, reopen overseas, offshore, automated. And what better way to break the backs of worker power and labor solidarity than to simply move to a different jurisdiction where there are where the workers are not organized where You don't to have

[13:15] Esteban Kelly’s Family Impacted by Capitalism

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Esteban Kelly’s Family Impacted by Capitalism

  • Esteban Kelly’s family history illustrates the impact of racial capitalism.
  • British colonization and enslavement brought his family to the Caribbean.
  • Globalization then drove them further north to the U.S.
  • The IMF’s debt restructuring policies and austerity measures ravaged Jamaica, impacting his family there.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 2

My own story and the ways that my family in the Caribbean has been the product of capitalism under the British Empire and then that struggle for independence and then the ravages of the IMF and what it has done through debt restructuring and policies on places like Jamaica.

Speaker 1

Here he's talking about the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, which started at the end of World War II, but really extended its global control over so-called developing countries In the 80s and 90s. Basically, the IMF operated like a pro-globalization, pro-capitalist bank.

[15:47] Esteban’s First Protest

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Esteban’s First Protest

  • Esteban Kelly developed anti-capitalist views after seeing the impact of the IMF on countries like Jamaica.
  • As a college student at UC Berkeley in the late 90s, he participated in his first major protest against the WTO in Seattle.
  • He initially understood the protest’s importance but didn’t grasp its global scale until he arrived.
  • The protest united punk, anarchist, and labor organizers against globalization’s negative effects, such as exploiting labor and harming the environment.
  • The event signified a rising awareness of globalization’s flaws.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

So that's what Esteban came to, along with a small but growing number of disaffected Millennials long before the financial crisis of 2008. By the time he went to college at UC Berkeley it was the late 90s, basically the pinnacle of the neoliberal movement for globalization. The World Trade Organization, which is kind of a cousin of the IMF, was founded in 1995 to better facilitate these agreements between countries. Agreements that would allow for the free movement of capital and allow companies to offshore more and more of their functions to the cheapest places. When people learned the WTO was planning a meeting in Seattle, right after Esteban started at college, a lot of folks planned to go and protest. He was 19, and this was his first big demonstration.

Speaker 2

I knew it was a thing that we were against. I had a sense about why. We didn't know how big it was going to be. We knew how big the protest was going to be. The protest was going to be in terms of how global it was. That's something I learned when I arrived there.

Speaker 1

This protest in 1999 represented not just the punk and anarchist strain of anti-capitalism, but also a growing movement by labor organizers to push back against the local impacts Of globalization. These agreements made trade more free for owners of companies, but often allowed them to more easily squash union efforts, exploit people's labor, and destroy the environment. More and more people saw economic globalization as fundamentally flawed. Esteban and a bunch of college kids drove up to Seattle.

[21:07] Occupy Wall Street - The 99%

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Occupy Wall Street - The 99%

  • In 2011, activists initiated the Occupy Wall Street movement, protesting against economic inequality.
  • The movement highlighted the disparity between the wealthiest 1% and the remaining 99% of the population.
  • This followed the 2008 financial crisis and subsequent government bailouts, which further fueled public frustration.
  • The Occupy movement gained national attention and called for systemic changes in financial systems.
  • The movement criticized the lack of accountability for the financial crisis and the unequal distribution of wealth.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Take over one of its major public parks in an act of protest. The clarion call was, we are the 99%. The 99% of people who share a much smaller percentage of the wealth in the richest country in the world. The 1%. They were accused of being quarters.

Speaker 2

And by the way, there was a pent up audience because it was three years after a huge financial crisis where there was very little accountability. There was not significant recovery despite how much hand-wringing had happened.

Speaker 1

The thing is, after the 2008 crash, incoming President Barack Obama, who took office just a few months later, led a significant bailout of banks and investment firms. There was some financial reform championed by people like Senators Warren and Bernie Sanders, but not a lot. And there was some aid to regular people in the US, but also not a lot. A lot of people who were middle class found themselves in surprisingly precarious situations because they'd lost jobs or lost all the wealth in their homes. Remaining wealth was concentrated among fewer and fewer people. In 2009, the wealthiest 1% of households had 225 times more wealth than the median household in the U.S. And wealth was growing for the 1 %ers and shrinking or stagnating for almost everyone else.

[22:39] Slow Economic Recovery and its impact

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Slow Economic Recovery and its impact

  • The Obama administration faced a severe economic downturn after the 2008 housing market crash.
  • Despite short-term bailouts, millions lost their homes and jobs, leading to a long and painful recovery from 2008 to 2016.
  • The drop in unemployment was slow, resulting in a very weak labor market for an extended period.
  • The deflation of the housing bubble triggered a chain of negative events, including decreased consumer spending, which further deepened the recession.
  • The recession had tangible consequences for ordinary people seeking employment, as illustrated by the speaker’s difficulty finding even food service jobs in Chicago in 2010.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 6

The Obama administration inherited an economy in freefall.

Speaker 1

The short-term bailouts kind of slowed the freefall, but literally millions lost their homes and jobs.

Speaker 6

Then from 2008 to 2016, we just had this really agonizingly slow recovery. Unemployment dropped a little bit every year. And it was just this incredibly extended period of time with a very impaired labor market. It was just really hard for people.

Speaker 1

He explains it started with the bust up of the housing market in 2008, but that was just a beginning.

Speaker 6

And so as soon as you start to have that deflation of the housing price bubble, you just get this cascade of horrible effects. I mean, one is people realize I'm nowhere near as wealthy as I thought I was, so they stop spending money. And when you stop spending money, everyone at once, that's what a recession happens.

[30:30] Jibali’s observation about Bernie and Trump voters

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Jibali’s observation about Bernie and Trump voters

  • Malaika Jibali, after graduating during the Great Recession, became involved in anti-capitalism.
  • She was enthusiastic about Bernie Sanders’ campaign in 2016, similar to other people in her generation.
  • Reporting in Milwaukee during that time, Jibali noticed a peculiar trend where some Bernie supporters switched to Trump after the primaries.
  • Studies indicate about 12% of Bernie primary voters made this shift, illustrating the frustration with Democrats that led some to prefer Trump’s populist approach, even if performative.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

And like a lot of people of her generation, she was stoked on Bernie Sanders.

Speaker 3

And you know what people are saying? They're saying enough is enough!

Speaker 1

Bernie tapped into that young populist energy that Trevor Hill and Malaika Jibaly were both trying to push the Democrats on. And in that, he had a leg up on Hillary Clinton, who ultimately was nominated to run against Donald Trump. Jibaly at the time was reporting in Milwaukee in the Rust Belt. And so she also saw the weird phenomenon of folks who were into Bernie and then, when he lost the primary, went to Trump, which one study showed was a full 12% of Bernie primary voters.

3.4- Necker and the Necklace

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Show notes > Just as the financial situation was about to explode the monarchy was hit by a public relations nightmare.
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[11:20] Necker’s Successor and Financial Trouble

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (09:58 - 11:23)

Necker’s Successor and Financial Trouble

  • Necker was succeeded by Jean-François Joly de Fleury, who came from an anti-Enlightenment family.
  • Fleury quickly realized the dire financial situation and said, “Holy crap. We have got to raise taxes.”
  • He managed to push through a new tax, but it was only enough to cover interest payments on existing loans, forcing him to borrow even more money.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Necar was succeeded by a guy, jean francois joli de flori, who was far more conservative in his outlook. Coming from a staunchly anti enlightenment family, he's not of major importance, and his name will not be on the test, but he was the bridge between necare and calogne. And so i have to mention that flori took one look at the books and said, holy crap. We have got to raise taxes. And thanks to his long standing connection to the parliament, he was able push through a third vatiem that would run through 17 86, whut the additional money raised was only going to Cover interest payments on all the previous loans. So just to keep going, florie had to borrow even more money and then go back to selling venal offices, a practice that had been slowly racheted down by previous ministries. Given what he had to work with, flori's days were always numbered. I mean, howd yo ask courtiers and minister to cut back on spending and submit to new taxes when the comterondu is sitting on their desk telling them that everything is fine. He finally called at quitz in march 17 83, just as negotiations to end the american war were getting under way. Fleri was succeeded by a guy whose name will absolutely be on the test charles alexandre de calon. Because it will be calon who will spark these so called pre revolution when he finally gives up the ghost and says, it's either major reforms or the kingdom collapses. Those are your options. Unfortunately,

[13:24] Calonne’s Spending Strategy

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (12:10 - 13:23)

Calonne’s Spending Strategy

  • Charles Alexandre de Calonne became Controller General of Finances in November 1783.
  • He believed the best way to get out of debt was to spend more money, a concept called “useful splendor.”
  • His plan involved borrowing more, hoping new loans at lower rates would eventually pay off higher-rate loans.
  • Instead of cutting spending, he increased it at Versailles to reassure creditors of the monarchy’s financial health, making royal loans seem like safe investments.
  • This strategy temporarily worked, securing hundreds of millions of livres in new debt, but doubts persisted.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

With the help of foreign minister virgen, who was, by now, louis most trusted adviser, cologne was brought into service controller general of finances in november 17 83. And he brought with him the rather novel idea that the best way to get out of debt was to spend more money. Now this is crazy, of course, and it didn't work. But cologn did have a plan. Like his predecessors, tergo and nekar colone, believed that raising taxes was, at least for the moment, a political non starter. His immediate predecessor, flori, had pushed the limits of the nobility's patience by initiating the third vatim anything more would require a concerted royal push that the ministry Did not have the stomach for, especially since it might eventually involve recalling the estates general, which was a sure fire way to completely lose control of the situation. So calon decided that the only way out was to keep borrowing and hoped that maybe in time, new loans taken at lower rates would pay off the loans with the higher rates, and then they could Start getting ahead of this thing. So instead of cutting back spending at versailles, calogne conspicuously jacked it up, the idea being that if creditors saw that the monarchy was spending lavishly, they would be Assured that the king was in good shape and see more royal

[14:44] Financial Crisis Inevitable

🎧 Play snip - 22sec️ (14:23 - 14:46)

Financial Crisis Inevitable

  • Controller General Calonne initially tried to solve France’s debt by increasing spending, hoping to attract more loans.
  • This strategy failed, and Calonne discovered the crown was facing a massive deficit, exceeding 100 million livres annually.
  • He realized that nearly half of the annual revenue would soon be consumed by debt servicing.
  • This revelation forced Calonne to confront the unavoidable financial crisis, leading him to develop a comprehensive reform plan.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

This was a grind the wheels to a halt. Revelation. Calogne realized that there could be no more tricks, no more kicking the can down the road. The crisis everyone had been trying to avoid for the last cade was finally upon them. And so he retired to his offices and started drawing up a plan to completely overhaul the crown's finances, a plan that would touch on almost every part of the ensien regime,

Confronting Capitalism: Socialism in the 21st Century

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Episode metadata

Show notes > Bernie Sanders resurrected socialist politics in the United States after many decades of defeat. But what socialism will entail or how we get there remains unclear. In this episode of Confronting Capitalism , Vivek Chibber discusses the difference between social democracy and socialism, how progressives won policies in the past, and where the Left should go after the Bernie moment.
>
> Confronting Capitalism with Vivek Chibber is produced by Catalyst: A Journal of Theory and Strategy , and published by Jacobin . Music by Zonkey.
  • Tags: #podcasts #snipd
  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Snips

[07:03] Core of Socialism

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (05:40 - 07:11)

Core of Socialism

  • The core motivation for socialism is to liberate people from poverty and social domination, enabling them to fully flourish and develop their abilities.
  • This stems from the belief in the moral equality of individuals, where every life holds equal value.
  • Socialist view that society is unjust if a large portion of the population is consigned to struggling for basic needs due to their circumstances.
  • Such unjust societies need to be changed.
  • Capitalism is seen as the system that subjects people to this immoral existence.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Vivek Chibber

Well, I think the core motivation for socialism has always been to free people from the shackles of poverty and social domination. That's really at the heart of it. And that itself comes from an underlying view, which ironically a lot of socialists themselves don't appreciate, which is a view that is associated with classical liberalism. I said this in the opening episode with Bhaskar. I think socialism is a lineal descendant of a certain kind of egalitarian liberalism. Now, I think it ended up going beyond it, but it shares the normative, the moral underpinnings, which is that everybody who's born into this earth as a title, an entitlement to certain Rights, certain privileges, so that they can fully flourish and they can develop their abilities, which means in philosophical terms, the moral equality of individuals. Every life is equally desirable, equally valuable. Now, if that's what you believe, it simply follows that if a large part of society is consigned at birth because of their poverty, because of their social situation, to struggling for Just the basic ends, to being at the call and under the thumb of other people, whatever society does that to them is an unjust society and needs to be changed. That's at the heart of socialism, the view that our society is one that illicitly subordinates the huge masses of people and consigns them to a life of just struggling for basic ends.

[07:30] Socialism’s Roots in Egalitarian Liberalism

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (06:00 - 07:35)

Socialism’s Roots in Egalitarian Liberalism

  • Socialism’s core motivation is freeing people from poverty and social domination, stemming from the belief in everyone’s entitlement to rights and privileges for full flourishing.
  • This belief aligns with classical liberalism’s emphasis on moral equality, where every life holds equal value.
  • Socialism views capitalism as unjustly subordinating the masses, condemning them to struggle for basic needs, making anti-capitalism central to socialist thought.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Vivek Chibber

I said this in the opening episode with Bhaskar. I think socialism is a lineal descendant of a certain kind of egalitarian liberalism. Now, I think it ended up going beyond it, but it shares the normative, the moral underpinnings, which is that everybody who's born into this earth as a title, an entitlement to certain Rights, certain privileges, so that they can fully flourish and they can develop their abilities, which means in philosophical terms, the moral equality of individuals. Every life is equally desirable, equally valuable. Now, if that's what you believe, it simply follows that if a large part of society is consigned at birth because of their poverty, because of their social situation, to struggling for Just the basic ends, to being at the call and under the thumb of other people, whatever society does that to them is an unjust society and needs to be changed. That's at the heart of socialism, the view that our society is one that illicitly subordinates the huge masses of people and consigns them to a life of just struggling for basic ends. That society is capitalism. Now, if you feel basic elements of capitalism are what subjects people to an unjust, immoral life and conditions, then you have to be an anti-capitalist. And I think that is the essence of what socialism is, an opposition to capitalism in its pure form, in its unbridled form, so that people can have the

[15:07] Social Democracy vs. Democratic Socialism

🎧 Play snip - 27sec️ (14:43 - 15:10)

Social Democracy vs. Democratic Socialism

  • Bernie Sanders calls his vision “democratic socialism”, advocating for basic necessities like healthcare, a living wage, housing, and pensions as citizen rights.
  • Vivek Chibber suggests a more accurate term is “social democracy” or a “welfare state”.
  • This approach doesn’t aim to abolish the market but to mitigate its negative impacts on people’s lives.
  • It seeks to provide basic amenities regardless of employment status or job performance.
  • The core principles of a welfare state stem from a socialist critique of capitalism.

📚 Transcript

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Vivek Chibber

Those should be given people as rights. What do we call this? Bernie calls it democratic socialism. I think that's a bit of a stretch. What it should be called is social democracy or a welfare state or something like that. The core principles of a welfare state are taken from an underlying socialist critique of capitalism. In that, we're saying, a social democrat says, I'm not trying to get rid of the market altogether. What I'm trying to do is make sure

[16:56] Spectrum of Market Intervention

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (15:23 - 17:05)

Spectrum of Market Intervention

  • There’s a spectrum of approaches to managing markets, ranging from minimal intervention to complete control.
  • Social democracy seeks to mitigate the negative impacts of the market by providing basic necessities as rights, without abolishing markets altogether.
  • Full economic planning, as attempted in the Soviet Union and early China, represents the most ambitious form of market control, where conscious decisions replace market forces.
  • Market socialism is a theoretical middle ground that retains markets for some goods while planning others, differing from capitalism in its overall goals and mechanisms.

📚 Transcript

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Vivek Chibber

So that's the weakest version, you could say, of pushing back the market. Now, the opposite, the full version of that, the most ambitious version is to say, we don't want to have markets at all. Instead of prices and markets determining what's going to be produced, how much of it will be produced, who's going to get it, instead we'll have full planning. So now the plan replaces the market. Now you've got no markets at all. And everything that people get, they get because of conscious decisions taken by some authorities, whether they're central authorities or some kind of cooperative commonwealth. People have different names for it. But essentially, conscious human intervention replaces the impersonal hand of the market. That's called planning, full planning. That was tried in countries, you could say to some degree or the other, in countries like the Soviet Union, the early stages of China. Now, I think it failed, but it was the most ambitious attempt to push back the market. Now, then there's intermediate versions of that. We've not really seen it. It's more still in the form of models, but it's called market socialism. What market socialism is proposed to do is keep markets as allocative mechanisms, which means allow markets to have some say in what's produced and what's not produced. So in that sense, they're just like, they're like capitalism. You keep a market. Everything isn't fully planned. Some parts of the economy will be fully planned, like say utilities, like maybe the biggest industries like healthcare, but you let markets make decisions like, okay, what kind of Soda pop are you going to get?

[18:06] Three Models of Anti-Capitalism

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (16:27 - 18:07)

Three Models of Anti-Capitalism

  • There are three models of anti-capitalism.
  • The weakest is Sanders-style social democracy, which retains private ownership but protects certain goods from the market, treating them as citizenship rights.
  • The strongest is full planning, where all goods and services are consciously allocated, eliminating the market entirely.
  • An intermediate model is market socialism, which combines markets with non-private ownership of the means of production. Enterprises compete, but profits and losses aren’t taken by private owners.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Vivek Chibber

Now, then there's intermediate versions of that. We've not really seen it. It's more still in the form of models, but it's called market socialism. What market socialism is proposed to do is keep markets as allocative mechanisms, which means allow markets to have some say in what's produced and what's not produced. So in that sense, they're just like, they're like capitalism. You keep a market. Everything isn't fully planned. Some parts of the economy will be fully planned, like say utilities, like maybe the biggest industries like healthcare, but you let markets make decisions like, okay, what kind of Soda pop are you going to get? What kind of shirts are you going to get? So isn't that then just a different kind of capitalism? And the answer is no, because in the models of market socialism we've been looking at, even though you have markets, what you won't have is privately owned means of production. So suppose, imagine a society in which you've gotten rid of all private ownership. So it's just like central planning, right? But where enterprises still compete with each other instead of being told by central authority what to produce and how much to produce. So you still have competition and you still have some firms succeeding, other firms failing maybe, but what you don't have is the owners of those firms being the ones who take all the Profits, who take all the losses. It's some kind of either national ownership or community ownership or workers co-ops or something like that. So now it means you have three models of what it means to be an anti-capitalist. The weakest model is Sanders-style social democracy. You still have full private ownership

[24:09] Political Leverage in Social Welfare

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (22:34 - 24:17)

Political Leverage in Social Welfare

  • Working-class parties will always improve social policies, but their impact depends on their power to enact programs.
  • Besides votes in Congress, another power source is the leverage their constituents (workers) can exert on politicians.
  • Businesses hold significant sway over politicians due to campaign funding and their control over the economy.
  • Politicians fear economic downturns because voters blame them, not capitalists, for job losses.
  • Therefore, to pass progressive legislation, it’s crucial to overcome business resistance, which requires strong worker leverage.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Vivek Chibber

How far it can go will depend on how much power it has to enact those programs. Now, powers of two kinds. One is votes in Congress. How many congressmen are going to be there? How many people in the Senate? How many people in the House? Will they pass your legislation or won't they? But there's another source of power that governments have, which is, can the people who they're trying to help exert some sort of leverage over the congressmen, over the senators. Why does this matter? It matters because as I think all of our listeners know, people who get elected into office aren't free independent agents once they get into office. They have to worry about re-election and they have to worry about who they owe their election to. And every capitalist democracy business is the most powerful actor in exerting leverage over politicians. Why? Well, they fund their campaigns. They're what's called the donor class, but also they're the ones who run the economy. And if they're not happy and they start pulling out their money or they start taking their money out of this country and investing it somewhere else because they don't like the government, If the economy goes into a tailspin, not only does it send people out onto the streets jobless, but they take it out on the politicians. They vote them out of office. As Joe Biden will tell you right now, he ran a full employment economy, but people blamed him for the price level being a third or 40% higher than it was four years ago, and they booted him Out of office. So a weak economy, ironically, punishes not the people who control the economy, which is capitalist, it punishes politicians.

[25:06] Labor Power and Welfare States

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (24:17 - 25:08)

Labor Power and Welfare States

  • Politicians in capitalist democracies are heavily influenced by business interests due to campaign funding and economic control.
  • A weak economy often punishes politicians rather than the capitalists who control the economy.
  • To overcome business resistance to progressive legislation, threats to their profit flow are needed, a role historically played by labor movements.
  • Strong labor movements give politicians independence from the investor class.
  • The social democratic project requires both political (parties) and economic (unions) organizations of the working class.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Vivek Chibber

So when people get elected into office, try to pass these progressive legislation. One of the things they're worrying about is how will businessmen take it? How will the business community take it? The way you overcome the resistance of the business community is you threaten them. You threaten them with stopping their flow of profits, which is what the labor movement did. So while a labor party is important inside the state. A labor movement is important outside the state to give them the power, not just over other congressmen, over other parliamentarians, but to give them some independence from the power Of the investor class, of the donor class. These are the two things you needed. So the essence of the social democratic project was building the political organizations of the working class in the form of parties and the economic organizations of

Back to the Future (w/ Jon Shelton)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by Jon Shelton, professor of democracy and justice studies at University of Wisconsin-Green Bay, for a conversation about the 1985 classic sci-fi comedy classic, Back to the Future . They explore the film’s focus on hyper-individualism as it relates to economic mobility, and critique the character of Doc Brown for his Silicon Valley style scientific approach, and  the flawed sexual politics ascribed to the movie's only female character.
>
> The Education Myth: How Human Capital Trumped Social Democracy (Cornell University Press, 2023)
> The Goldie Wilson Conspiracy (Yo! Black Pop Culture)
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> 🤝 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PATREON 🤝
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> www.patreon.com/movies_vs_capitalism
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> MVC donates its ad space to progressive or leftist causes and organizations. If you’re interested in promoting your work, email us at [email protected].
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> Artwork by Rufus Paisley | Theme song by JustBen
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Snips

[35:40] Racial Politics of Back to the Future

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (34:11 - 35:40)

Racial Politics of Back to the Future

  • The movie ‘Back to the Future’ portrays the 1980s Hill Valley as degraded compared to the pristine 1950s.
  • This aligns with the real-world wave of black mayors in the 1970s during urban fiscal crises, where black leadership was wrongly blamed for pre-existing economic decline due to factors like deindustrialization and wealth migration to the suburbs.
  • In the film, the clock tower, a symbol of justice in the 1950s, is depicted as the Department of Social Services in the 1980s under black mayor Goldie Wilson, implying a shift towards welfare politics blamed on black political rule.
  • Wilson’s platform mirrors the white mayor’s from the 1950s, emphasizing ‘progress’, but is presented negatively in the 1980s context.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Jon Shelton

I just wanted to give this kind of shout out.

Frank Capello

We'll link to it in the description of the podcast.

Jon Shelton

Yeah, awesome. Awesome. One of the things that he noticed, and I don't know if y'all noticed this, but this is amazing. In the 1950s, the clock tower is connected. It's the courthouse, right? Which is this symbol of, this video I was watching pointing this out, that it's the symbol of justice and everything. It's the Department of Social Services in the 1980s, right? And so there's this sense that black political power led by this mayor, Goldie Wilson, who, by the way, if you notice, he trumpets the exact same policy platform as the white mayor in The 1950s. Progress is his middle name, right? That it's become this degraded place where welfare politics are siphoning off the resources of the citizens of Hill Valley because of black political rule. And now this is stuff I'm adding to this kind of conversation from my own research on the 1970s from my first book, actually. There's a wave of black mayors in the 1970s in a lot of American cities, right? People like Kenneth Gibson in Newark, Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta. And they become mayors in these cities right when these cities start to undergo fiscal crises because all the wealth is being taken out of the cities and taken to the suburbs. And you've got deindustrialization happening where corporations are saying like, we can get cheaper labor elsewhere. And these cities all have fiscal crises.

[37:36] Black Mayors and Fiscal Crises

🎧 Play snip - 3min️ (35:12 - 37:42)

Black Mayors and Fiscal Crises

  • In the 1970s, many American cities elected Black mayors for the first time.
  • This coincided with fiscal crises as wealth moved to suburbs and corporations sought cheaper labor elsewhere, leading to deindustrialization.
  • These two events are often equated, contributing to the negative perception of cities under Black leadership.
  • This dynamic is reflected in the portrayal of Hill Valley in “Back to the Future.”
  • This highlights the historical context of economic decline and the challenges faced by Black mayors in that era.
  • The economic stagnation and inflation of the time exacerbated these problems as tax receipts went down and municipal budgets faced cuts.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Jon Shelton

There's a wave of black mayors in the 1970s in a lot of American cities, right? People like Kenneth Gibson in Newark, Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta. And they become mayors in these cities right when these cities start to undergo fiscal crises because all the wealth is being taken out of the cities and taken to the suburbs. And you've got deindustrialization happening where corporations are saying like, we can get cheaper labor elsewhere. And these cities all have fiscal crises. And it's the exact moment that black mayors take control that all of a sudden they start facing all of these like, you know, these sort of significant problems that are that are seen as Degrading the cities. And those two things are equated with each other. That is a huge part of the portrait of this version of the 1980s with this black mayor. And it is so important for us to recognize that.

Frank Capello

That is such a good point. And can I ask you, in your research, did the did the rise of like black elected officials in the 70s? Did that coincide with sort of the white flight that had happened in the preceding decades? Was it just more? Was it like the demographics of these cities were changing and politics like the politics of the 60s were getting more progressive? So it created more space for black elected officials? Like what would you attribute that specific dynamic change to?

Jon Shelton

Yeah, it's both things. So yes, it's in the 60s. It's the growth of Black political power. So like in Newark, for example, and I write about this in my first book, that Kenneth Gibson is elected by, you know, this group of civil rights activists that's led by, I don't know if Y'all know this person, but this poet named Amiri Baraka, who has had some movie roles, most famously in Bulworth, actually. But they're elected by civil rights activists. And so it's this great moment, but it corresponds with these political economic changes that are happening in the country, right? Where really starting in the 60s, you've got greater demands for social services, in part led by welfare rights activists. But again, you also have corporations moving from cities like New York City. The garment industry practically goes under in the 1960s and 70s in New York because they're like, our labor costs are too high. We've got to find cheaper costs of labor. And then you add to that the inflation that happens in the decade and economic stagnation. Economists literally thought those two things couldn't happen at the same time, right? Economic decline and inflation.

The Truman Show (w/ Jaffer Khan)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by comedian Jaffer Khan for a conversation about the 1998 Peter Weir / Jim Carrey masterpiece, The Truman Show . They discuss how Truman’s arc serves as a metaphor for radicalization, Guy Debord’s Society of the Spectacle and the commodification of genuine human experience, and how the film prophesied the self-surveillance state of social media.
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[57:19] Twins’ College Fund

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (56:40 - 57:33)

Twins’ College Fund

  • Jaffer Khan’s friend, living in LA, had twins, which doubled the financial burden.
  • A casting director approached them, highlighting the lucrative nature of twin babies in acting due to child labor laws.
  • Initially resistant, the parents eventually agreed to let their twins act in commercials.
  • Six months later, the twins had booked enough commercials to cover their college expenses.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Frank Capello

We have this adorable child. I'm not, I am not condoning it. Um, I had a buddy when we were, when I was living in LA, you know, working class guy had just gotten married, him and his wife having their first kid. Turns out they're having twins. And he's just like, Oh fuck, we're having twins. This is now twice the cost of everything. This is, I, and I saw like, they were like, we're still excited, but we're super stressed. And the kids came adorable twin identical twin girls they were out one day casting director it's la so a casting director at like the fucking cafe that they're at was like hey just so you Know you have twins twins are incredibly lucrative in the child in the baby acting world because if one of your kids you know goes over time you gotta spare so like, I'm telling you, and They were like, they're like, No, we really, really don't want to do it. We really don't want to do it. We don't want to get involved in the kid acting world. And eventually they caved. And, and then like, I saw him like six months later.

[01:04:51] The Role of the Artist Under Capitalism

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (01:02:50 - 01:04:56)

The Role of the Artist Under Capitalism

  • Rivka Rivera discusses the role of arts workers under capitalism as portrayed in The Truman Show.
  • The film reveals the ‘sweat labor’ involved in manipulating Truman’s reality, highlighting the behind-the-scenes work of actors and crew.
  • Rivera contrasts this with the role of the artist as envisioned by Tony Cade Bambara: ‘to make the revolution irresistible.’
  • In The Truman Show, artists instead control and justify the capitalist worldview, exemplified by actors trapped in their roles.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Rivka Rivera

OK, this makes me think of this. This was something that I was super interested in in this rewatch of the movie was the role of the arts worker. So like you're talking about your comedy friends, like the role of the arts worker under capitalism and what this movie tells us about it, what it starts to explore. So we have this like one of my favorite things because I love a meta universe is the fact that there are actors outside, right, who get hired for this movie to play actors who are playing Characters in the world. You have laura linney playing an actress who's playing meryl and i just thought that they i love the glimpses we would get of the laborers right like that the the island of labor that this Show is the small population that this show is employing but these are pretty much arts workers right so you have like the behind the scenes the actors and we'll get glimpses of it of like How much they're actually like working very very hard laboring to like manipulate truman's reality but you get to see the sweat labor of that which i appreciate like once the scenes Like there's the scene where he goes into the elevator and they were there in time and you see them like like rushing to get into hair and makeup and then you as truman's journey into this World sort of appearing to him we also start to get more of a glimpse of an of that world when he goes to the travel agent and she obviously had to rush there because he's like getting off Script and she still has her makeup bib on so these things are revealing themselves to us and i'm really interested in... Oh, I didn't catch that. And there's lots of little stuff, things like that. I think the person we probably follow the most is Meryl, because she is the one who comes the closest to just breaking when she's like, when Truman's going after her, like shaking her To tell him what's going on. And she's screaming like, this is unprofessional. She's basically screaming out for help to her limit without breaking the reality. You know, one of my favorite quotes is Tony Cade Bambara, that the role of the artist is to make the revolution irresistible. And this film sort of shows us that the role of the artist under capitalism is to control and justify the

[01:09:57] Actors Trapped in Truman Show

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:08:44 - 01:10:04)

Actors Trapped in Truman Show

  • Jaffer Khan and his girlfriend discussed the actors’ situations in “The Truman Show.”
  • They speculated about the financial motivations and potential exploitation of the actors who play Truman’s family and friends, wondering if there’s any amount of money worth sacrificing one’s own life for a role.
  • They imagined the actors being trapped by exploitative contracts, initially signed as starving artists.
  • The movie subtly reveals cracks in these actors’ performances over the years, especially for Marlon, Truman’s best friend since childhood, who’s aware of the fabricated reality.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Jaffer Khan

I can see that incredible just me me and my girlfriend just after watching we both loved it and we we kind of came up with our own lore because around these actors because that was a big thing We were talking about is like how much money would be worth it to play a guy's wife every day and night of your life like is there any amount of money that that would like when do you get to Uh enjoy your life and and we're also just again just imagining like adding lore to the movie of just like yeah i'm sure they might they must have signed some like very like uh exploitive Contracts early, and there were probably starving artists, and now they're trapped as well. They show, like you were talking about in the movie, they beautifully show the crack of these actors who have to be around Truman for years.

Frank Capello

And that's really interesting, especially with Marlon, the best friend character, because he's the other person in the world other than Truman that has been there from ostensibly Like he was a child. So he was unwillingly cast as a child actor into this role. So this raises that's honestly maybe the worst gig, even worse than being Truman, is being Marlon, because he's been indentured his entire life, but he completely knows that it is all Bullshit.

Jaffer Khan

Like every single ignorance is bliss thing. He knows.

[01:18:48] Ronald Gladden’s Post-Jury Duty Life

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (01:16:33 - 01:18:50)

Ronald Gladden’s Post-Jury Duty Life

  • After gaining fame on ‘Jury Duty’, Ronald Gladden’s Instagram became saturated with brand promotions.
  • Jaffer Khan and his girlfriend, initially charmed by Gladden’s authenticity, now observe his transformation into a “walking, talking ad.”
  • This anecdote highlights the commodification of individuals post-reality TV, where authenticity is exploited for commercial gain.
  • Rivka Rivera questions the audience’s complicity in this phenomenon, drawing parallels to ‘The Truman Show’ and questioning the ethics of manufactured reality for entertainment.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Jaffer Khan

But what was interesting is, like, so all of a sudden this guy is famous now and he's beloved, right? So now he is a famous guy. And, you know, me and my girlfriend both fell in love with this guy. And so we follow him on Instagram. But now on Instagram, he's just exclusively brand stuff. So he is now just a, his job now is to be an ad. He is a walking, talking ad. And it was like, yeah, this guy, we all love him because he didn't ask for any of this. We love him because he was truly authentic on television. And when he's done with that, his the rest, his existence is going to be an ad because he was this authentic guy.

Frank Capello

Damn. Wow.

Rivka Rivera

I'm so glad you brought that up. Yeah, that's a fucking bummer. Yeah. And, like, of course, watching, even as you were saying that, and I'm, like, watching us be like, yeah, but it was good-natured. Like, no. It was. It was. I mean, I know it was, but, like, honestly, like, are we not being the Truman Show audience? Like, they all thought that was good-natured. Oh, for sure. Oh, my God.

Frank Capello

100%.

Rivka Rivera

Like, I'm with you. I want to protect that shit, too. I want to, but, like, if we're really going to really be fucking critical, like, it's fucked up. None of it was good natured. They lied to him. Like, if we're straight up about it. He right? It was disingenuous. I'm not willing to let go of jury duty, but they did gaslight a human being. Like, even though he's like in on the, like that fucks, we were all down to fuck someone up psychologically for our entertainment. And I'm not saying I'm above it. Cause I love that show. I'm just pointing out, like you got me a little fucked up. Cause I'm like, we are that Truman show audience. And they show the way they cut away to the audience. You do feel like none of those people feel like they're, you know, they're not like screaming at the TV. They feel like he's part of their world they literally have the countdown of days like their own world is like in some ways tracked by his life oh yeah because they like count the days down And like there's a guy sitting in a tub with him he's like if he goes away again it goes back to that contract we have as an audience and why it's so hard to imagine the end of capitalism because We are also so deeply in contract like if it's this hard to even just admit how fucked up jury duty is and

Josie and the Pussycats (w/ Shannon Amabile)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by psychotherapist and cinephile Shannon Amabile for a deep dive into the 2001 cult classic Josie and the Pussycats, taking a nostalgic trip back to the days of body glitter and zebra prints. They talk about  the film’s sharp satire of late 90s consumerism, the influence of corporate propaganda, and the hyper-exploitative nature of the music industry.
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[37:55] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (36:45 - 37:55)

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Frank Capello

Intelligence state to, you know, just drive consumerism, drive, drive consumerism, get all this money out of kids and just control the way that people think. And I'm actually going to play a quick clip because they do this. They have this informational video in the middle where they explain all this as told by actor Eugene Levy.

Rivka Rivera

Epic. I'm here to talk about subliminal messages in rock and roll music, or as it's simply known in some cultures, rock music. You see, for years, the government has been wisely coercing teenagers to buy products they normally wouldn't want just to get their money. Fact, kids don't have bills to pay. Fact, they don't pay taxes. But they do babysit and hold minimum wage jobs that earn them wads of cash as thick as, well, my body of work. As But these kids today aren't dumb. They're not going to buy just anything. That's why the government has been finding small subliminal advertising suggestions in today's rock music. The results? We can now get these kids to buy just about anything. We can have them chasing a new trend every week. And that is good for the economy. And what's

[55:13] Untitled

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📚 Transcript

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Shannon Amabile

That's really hard to swallow. And I think that's why I do the work that I do, that I don't like the reality we live in either, which is why I want to be with the creative people, because they know how to solve problems, And creativity is a survival skill, and they're the best one at it. Ooh, soundbite.

Rivka Rivera

Odds.

Frank Capello

Speaking of the creators of this film specifically because as we've talked about like this has become a cult classic and people have discovered its politics you know way long after The fact so a few years ago was his 20 year anniversary and the writers deborah caplan and harry elfont did an interview um and someone asked them explicitly like were you seeking to write An anti-capitalist film? And they were like, no, that's not what we were doing. We understand like the consumerism part for sure. But I'll just quote them specifically here. Harry said, you know, we definitely talked about consumerism, but it definitely felt more to us that it was non-group think. I mean, she says at the end of the movie, you know, think for yourselves. So for them, it was, they were writing a movie about conformity

[01:00:36] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (59:26 - 01:00:36)

📚 Transcript

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Frank Capello

Commercialized and targeted towards teenagers and all of the things that this film lays out. And I mean, even just like products, like Shannon, your Diet Coke. There are things that I have in my life that I enjoy. And that's okay. We're not saying that like you cannot enjoy a product because it has been marketed to you or because you have purchased it in a capitalist market but it's more so to just realize how these Advertisements how they target people's insecurities specifically because that's kind of that's kind of like at the heart of this and and i think a thing that this movie does really Well because there's a few moments you know when they're like in the party and their inner monologue is going and they're like, Josie and Val are like, oh, everybody's thinking this About me. And then, you know, and then at the end, you find out that Wyatt and Fiona are just a couple of like weirdos who are just like want to be accepted and think, have everyone think that they're Cool. So like, it's a, I think this movie does a really good job at reminding you that like- There are humans in the background. Yeah, and that advertisement based on insecurity and exploiting that insecurity, that is problematic. But like, you know, otherwise enjoying something is

[01:02:47] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:01:37 - 01:02:47)

📚 Transcript

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Rivka Rivera

Consequences, you are may not be able to enjoy that thing when you put together the real, real effects that making that product has. And your participation in that by being a consumer of it is very real. We can't do that with everything, but I do think that it's not easy. It's really hard, but I don't feel good about a lot of the things I use. I don't know what to do about that. I don't know what to do about it. And there's moments where it comes in and it's overwhelming. I'm like, push it away, push it away. But like, if there was and this is why movements and unity is so important. Make these iPhones. Like I alone can't be like, it's going to do something for me to just isolate myself and not be a part of the world and lose work and whatever that would be. But I also can sit with the paradox that like me shutting out the reality that people are dying making these products. And I am a part of that. Like we do have to own that we're a part of that. And that discomfort, I think, can be important

3.6- The Stately Quadrille

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Show notes > Round and round and round it goes...
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[27:11] Prussian Intervention in the United Provinces

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (25:36 - 27:16)

Prussian Intervention in the United Provinces

  • In June 1787, the Stadholder’s wife, Princess Wilhelmina, was captured by a Patriot militia, escalating tensions between the Orangists and Patriots.
  • The British saw an opportunity to restore Orangist power but lacked the necessary forces.
  • Prussia, under the new King Frederick William II, intervened, invading the United Provinces in September 1787.
  • The Prussians’ intervention was partly to avenge Wilhelmina’s treatment and partly to initiate Prussian expansion.
  • Surprisingly, France did not intervene, despite supporting the Patriots, causing embarrassment and resignations within the French government.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

The flash point finally came in june 17 87, when the stadholder's wife, the prussian princess willamina, was captured by a patriot militia company and not necessarily treated with The respect due to a princess. The british saw in all this an opportunity to evict the patriots and restore the power of the orangists. But they did not have the requisite forces to do it themselves. But guess who did? That's right, the prussians. Now for decades, prussia had declined to do anything about the drift of dutch politics towards a french orbit, though the british and prussians were allies frederick the great calculated That in the netherlands, no great prussian interests were at stake, and in involved would only mire them in a war with the french, who very much had a national interest in stake. Plus, frederick recognized the natural ostrophobia of the french might eventually make them a key ally. So he saw no reason to step on their toes in holland. But frederick the great died in 17 86 after forty six years on the throne, and power passed to his son, frederick william the second, who was not quite the man his father was. And he decided, what the heck, let's get into it. Partly to avenge the honor of his sister willhemina, and partly to set the stage for a new age of prussian expansion, the new king decided to invade the united provinces. So in september 17 87, in they went. And to everyone's great surprise, the prussians, the british, these suddenly all on their own dutch patriots, the french, did not lift a finger to stop them. Now briene was probably right about france not being able to afford a war with the prussians up in the united provinces.

Rat Sommeliers, Pneumatic Tube Flirting, Why Periods Hurt

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Show notes > Kate Downey joins the show to explain how little we actually know about why periods hurt so dang bad. Plus, Rachel divulges how to flirt using tubes, and Laura talks about the cutest, sweetest little rat sommeliers.
>
> The Weirdest Thing I Learned This Week is a podcast by Popular Science. Share your weirdest facts and stories with us in our Facebook group or tweet at us !
> Click here to learn more about all of our stories! 
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> Link to Jess' Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/jesscapricorn
> --
> Follow our team on Twitter
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[19:15] Pneumatic Tube Flirting

🎧 Play snip - 3min️ (16:42 - 19:16)

Pneumatic Tube Flirting

  • In 1920s Berlin clubs like Femina and Rezi, patrons could flirt via pneumatic tubes and table telephones.
  • Patrons could send messages to others across the club in a low-stakes way.
  • The tubes were stylized to look like golden snakes, adding to the allure.
  • Some clubs even had switchboards that allowed patrons to send gifts to each other, much like streaming gifts on Twitch today.
  • Femina was particularly large and tourist-friendly, with instructions in both German and English.
  • Switchboard operators censored obscene messages.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Rachel Feltman

You're truly seated for a show. It's not like a get up and mosh club. And everyone's table has a glowing light above it with a number and you have phones and pneumatic tubes. Instead of talking to them in person, you send a message. But you might get things going while you're sitting at your respective tables. Just like send a cheeky little hello. And then, you know, you can also that can also be the whole activity. You can just sort of be flirting with each other in a very low stakes way from across the club all night if that's what you want. But then, of course, the evening can go wherever you want it to. So it's texting. Yes, it is texting. It's tube texting. It's tube texting. I like that. And it's also sort of like air dropping because you can tube text with a stranger just because you see them across the way. The tubes were stylized to look like golden snakes. So you like put your message in a snake mouth. It's like very sexy stuff, honestly. And yeah, the phones at tables were a big thing. You actually, I didn't realize this, but in Cabaret, there's the telephone song that like has people communicating over telephone. And I'm very familiar with Cabaret. Like I did tech for a production my dad was in when I was a kid. And it never occurred to me like, oh, why are there phones at their tables? Why is this? I, you know, it didn't occur to me that that they were referencing a real popular thing that happened in these, in these Weimar clubs.

Kate Downey

To be fair, there's a lot in that musical that you should ask questions about. And then you go, okay, fine.

Rachel Feltman

Yeah. Yeah. You could even apparently ask the switchboard, you could, you know, write, write something down and put it in the tube and the switchboard could send another patron a gift from a list Of available options. So you could really like on Twitch. Yeah, yeah, totally. It's like streaming gifts. Yeah. What is that called?

Laura Bises

But I know what you mean. That's so much nicer than where my brain went. My brain went right to the Hunger Games and like airdropping. Really? No. But yeah, that sounds more. That sounds a lot nicer. Never mind. Yeah.

Rachel Feltman

Well, Femina was twice as big and had more than 225 table telephones with instructions in German and English. So it was very, very tourist expat friendly. Though apparently one note that I found really funny, Rezi at least did have women working in the switchboard room who would censor anything too obscene. I wasn't able to find a primary

Elephant Pranks, Ghost Armies, Would You Still Love Me If I Was A Silkworm

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Show notes > Sophie Bushwick and Claire Maldarelli join the show to talk about silkworms in tea and ghost armies (though not the kind from Lord of the Rings). Plus, Rachel talks about a prankster elephant.
> The Weirdest Thing I Learned This Week is a podcast by Popular Science. Share your weirdest facts and stories with us in our Facebook group or tweet at us !
> Click here to learn more about all of our stories! 
> Links to Rachel's TikTok, Newsletter, Merch Store and More:  https://linktr.ee/RachelFeltman  
> Rachel now has a Patreon, too! Follow her for exclusive bonus content:  https://www.patreon.com/RachelFeltman
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> --
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[06:02] Elephant Shower Time

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (04:16 - 06:01)

Elephant Shower Time

  • At the Berlin Zoo, Mary, a 54-year-old elephant, learned to use a water hose to give herself showers.
  • On average, she’d pick up the hose within five seconds of it being turned on and shower for seven minutes.
  • This behavior was novel and hadn’t been observed in elephants before.
  • After her shower, she would drop the hose, indicating an understanding of its purpose.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Rachel Feltman

So this story is about three elephants at the Berlin Zoo. Mary, Pengfa, and Anshali. Mary is this handsome, respectable woman of 54. And Pengfa is also an adult. I want to say she's in her 30s. Don't quote me on that, though. And then Anshali is Pengfa's child, 12 years old, little rapscallion. We'll get into that more later. So this all started because as part of their morning routine at the Berlin Zoo, these elephants were showered by keepers with a water hose. And then they had access to water, you know, all day to drink and to spray themselves. But the hose would only be turned on, you know, while the zookeepers were using it. And researchers who were hanging out watching these elephants for interesting reasons I will get to later, turns out they are a very special, interesting group. But they noticed that Mary wasn't just spraying herself with water using her trunk, which is something elephants do when they have access to water. They do lots of grooming. They do lots of stuff with their trunks. They'll like give themselves like little dust and mud baths. So that's not unusual at all. But they found that she was also taking the hose and holding it in her trunk to give herself showers, which is not something they had ever seen an elephant do before. Basically, when the hose was turned on, she would pick it up on average within five seconds, and then she would shower for an average of seven minutes. Yeah, she was like, it's shower time. Yeah. And seven minutes, which like I feel like for an animal that doesn't shower, seven minutes is like, that's a luxurious shower, girl. I understand.

3.2-The Broken Regime

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Show notes > The Ancien Regime was a mess in desperate need of reform.
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[08:43] Ancien Régime Tax System

🎧 Play snip - 18sec️ (08:21 - 08:40)

Ancien Régime Tax System

  • The tax structure in pre-revolutionary France was extremely problematic and needed reform.
  • The main tax, the taille, was levied on land.
  • However, the nobility and clergy, who owned almost half the land, were exempt from it.
  • This exemption fueled the ambition of the bourgeoisie to acquire positions granting similar exemptions, driven by both financial and social status considerations.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Because, you guys, we just cannot go on like this. The main tax, if there was one, was the tie. The tie was a tax on land. But critically, for reasons dating back to the days of high feudalism, the nobility and the church were exempt. Indeed, exemption from the tie

[24:19] Montesquieu’s Influence

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (22:47 - 24:17)

Montesquieu’s Influence

  • Montesquieu’s Spirit of the Laws (1748) became a key text for French revolutionaries in the 1790s.
  • Ironically, Montesquieu held a conservative, aristocratic worldview, making him a strange bedfellow for revolutionaries.
  • He believed in separation of powers, balanced government, public consent, intermediary institutions, and context-specific political systems.
  • Despite his conservatism, revolutionaries valued his authority on building just, rational, and stable governments.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

After spending a lifetime travelling and researching and reflecting, montesquieu published the spirit of the laws in 17 forty eight itbecame the authoritative text on the science Of politics. All the men who tried to remake france in the 17 nineties used montesquieu as their touchstone, which is a bit ironic, as montesquieu was conservative and approached politics with A particularly aristocratic world view. That would have made him the darling of the revolutions for about a week and a half in 17 88, and after that, a counter revolutionary pig. Mont sqie, as you know, believed in the separation of powers and balanced government and the necessity of public consent to protect liberty and property. He also believed that there had to be intermediary institutions between the rabble and the power, or the whole thing would spin off into anarchy. Not only that, but montesquieu was also deeply committed to the idea that political institutions must conform to the societies within which they are made. For him, there was no universally pure model, and there was no sense in trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. Montesquieu's theories were taught everywhere and read by practically every major revolutionary figure. And despite his obviously conservative world view, they all treated him as the authority on building a just and rational and stable government, which will become superimportant When everyone goes off to build a s in rational and stable government. Not that they ever really had much success.

Alien: Romulus (w/ Joe Mayall)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank welcome back returning guest Joe Mayall to talk about the latest installment in the Alien franchise, Alien: Romulus . They appreciate how director Fede Álvarez doubles down on the anti-corporate themes of the original Alien , while finding new ways to freak the shit out of his audience. They also agree that android Andy stole the movie and unpack how his character arc is a sharp critique of AI. 
>
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[28:50] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (27:40 - 28:50)

3.5- The Assembly of Notables

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Show notes > King Louis called the Assembly of Notables in early 1787 to approve a major fincancial reform package. But intead of rubber stamping the initiatives, the Notables scrutinized every detail.
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[10:14] Calonne’s Assembly of Notables

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (08:44 - 10:16)

Calonne’s Assembly of Notables

  • Calonne’s financial reform plan, presented to the Assembly of Notables, appeared rushed and improvised.
  • This lack of preparation invited scrutiny from the assembly, as it seemed to demand a thorough review before approval.
  • Calonne’s imperious tone and refusal to open the royal ledgers further fueled suspicion and resistance to his proposals.
  • His claim that the Comte d’Aranda was a fraud was seen as an attempt to shift blame for deficits.
  • The reform package included a uniform land tax, applicable to all, and the abolishment of provincial assemblies.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

And it wasn't until last minute that the raw materials he and his assistants had been working from were finally cobbled together into something resembling a coherent plan. So though what he handed to the notables was pretty well thought out, it looked like a slap together pile of half baked improvisations that deserved, and, frankly, demanded, a thorough Going over before it could be approved. But cologne was not prepared for this level of scrutiny at all, as can be deduced from the blunt and rather imperious tone of his opening remarks. After dropping the bombshell that the monarchy was more than a hundred million livres in the red, cologne inexplicably refused to open the royal ledgers to scrutiny, telling the notables That he had shown the numbers to the king, the king had approved the numbers, and that should be good enough for them. This naturally raised suspicions that he was cooking the books for his own purp his further claim that the comte randu had been a total fraud was also taken as a self serving ploy to blame Neker for deficits probably run up by cologne himself. So clearly, these were not the actions of someone expecting the assembly's deliberations to be anything more than a mere formality. I don't think it even occurred to him that the notables wouldn't approve the package, let alone that this would all lead to him kicked out of the ministry in disgrace. Ok, so let's get into the guts of the thing. What cologne presented to the assembly was a reform package divided into four sections. The first dealt with two major initiatives that were the keystone

Whiplash (w/ Kelly Kaufman)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by comedian Kelly Kaufman , to discuss the 2014 jazz thriller Whiplash . This film is Damian Chazelle’s breakout feature starring JK Simmons and Miles Teller. They talk about abusive power dynamics in the arts, toxic masculinity and the dangers of perfectionism under capitalism. Frank and Rivka also discuss the recent rants of comedian Jerry Seinfeld against the left and gen z. 
> For next week’s movie, we’ll be watching the 2007 iconic Batman movie The Dark Knight.
> MVC donates its ad space to progressive or leftist causes and organizations. If you’re interested in promoting your work, email us at [email protected] .
> Artwork by Rufus Paisley  | Theme song by JustBen
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[04:54] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (03:44 - 04:54)

📚 Transcript

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Kelly Kaufman

Crap and people worrying so much about offending other people.

Rivka Rivera

When you write a script and it goes into four or five different hands committees groups here's our thought about this joke well that's the end of your comedy he was just sort of adding

Frank Capello

On to this discourse from these you know gen x boomer comedians that do not know how to adapt with the times and i i don't know because because it's not OK to be openly racist or sexist or Homophobic anymore. They're all like they're like, oh, no, that's you're trampling all over my freedom of speech. I mean, I'm legally allowed to say whatever I want, but like people will get upset if I do. So, yeah, just felt like another useless addition to this discourse that comes up every once in a while about how the left makes comedy impossible yeah i mean i actually think it's been

Rivka Rivera

A pretty i feel like this has been a pretty consistent complaint from all of these these folks this like continued whiny drawl of like you just can't be funny anymore which just has the Same vibe of like you just can't touch titty anymore you know what i mean yeah

Who Framed Roger Rabbit (w/ Rebecca Burns)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by journalist Rebecca Burns for a conversation about Robert Zemeckis’ 1988 masterpiece Who Framed Roger Rabbit . They talk about how the film draws inspiration from Los Angeles’ history, like “The Great Red Car Conspiracy” and the Chavez Ravine. They also discuss how the film’s “Toons” serve as a stand-in for LA’s marginalized communities, the incredible technical achievements of the film, the tension between Disney and Warner Bros, and how Bob Hoskins is a sexy little hairy meatball. 
>
> Against the Wind ( The American Prospect , 2024)
>
> For next week’s movie, we’ll be watching the 1997 Studio Ghibli Miyazaki masterpiece Princess Mononoke .
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[25:04] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (23:54 - 25:04)

📚 Transcript

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Frank Capello

Marketing wise, they pushed it as, yeah, something like fun for the whole family, but also like something that like teenagers could go see and enjoy. You know, this is that time like the 80s when you know kids movies did have much more like adult humor and you know cursing and stuff like that but i mean yeah i i know like briefly about the Production because i find this fascinating and and we'll talk about like the content of the movie um at some point but this this movie has like so many different layers going on with it And in what it's saying and also like how it was produced this movie was produced when disney was basically like not about to go bankrupt but disney the studio the animation studio was Doing very very very badly they had not had a hit in like years they did not like their animation house was not nearly as robust as it had been everyone was kind of like is disney like kind Of cooked like are they done are they just the theme parks now so this story came along at a time when disney was like really trying to reduce their image and steven spielberg was a producer On this movie and basically convinced disney and warner brothers to give all of their characters to use together it was the first time that disney

Snowpiercer

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank delve into Bong Joon-ho’s 2013 climate horror thriller, Snowpiercer . They explore how the film's deep Marxist themes make it an ideal choice for discussing class warfare. They also examine the role of collaborators in revolutionary movements, the symbolism of airplanes as reminders of our modern caste system, and why Captain America was the perfect choice to star in this movie. 
>
> For next week’s movie, we’ll be watching Joe Dante’s 1990 cult classic Gremlins 2: The new batch.
>
> 🤝 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PATREON 🤝
>
> www.patreon.com/movies_vs_capitalism
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> MVC donates its ad space to progressive or leftist causes and organizations. If you’re interested in promoting your work, email us at [email protected].
>
> Artwork by Rufus Paisley | Theme song by JustBen
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Snips

[22:26] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (21:16 - 22:26)

📚 Transcript

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Frank

The last of humanity on this train and the importance of continuing the human race and having the human race survived is all wrapped up in what takes place within this train. And that's used throughout the film is used as a justification for the upper class passengers and the fucking fascists who run this train to justify their brutal treatment of the tail Section passengers, which is something we see in the real world when Imperial forces are like, well, we have to go in and kill all these people. How else are we going to maintain order if we don't like they're the ones not following the rules? So we have to go in and just absolutely oppress the shit out of these people and murder them. Totally.

Rivka

And I love that that we have this like the visual of the train just endlessly moving around. It feels like this false sense of progress and growth, but it's really going nowhere. There's no destination. Like it's just this endless sort of like idea of growth. And it's it's progressing towards nowhere. And that to me is capitalism being driven by, you know, accumulate, accumulate, driven by profit

[31:18] Untitled

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📚 Transcript

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Frank

Remain in our allotted station, our preordained position. And then she puts, just in such a cruel turn, she puts the shoe on the guy's head whose arm is literally freezing. And she's like, would you wear a shoe on your head? No, you wouldn't. You'd wear a hat. I am a hat. You are a shoe. Be a shoe. And it's silly, but it's so clear. This is what I was saying before. It's just like everything is so clear and so simple. This idea that, you know, we are the hats. You are the shoes. These are our places. Order must be kept. And if you step out of line as the shoe, it's actually not in your best interest for you to not want to be brutalized and murdered and have your kids stolen. It's actually in your best interest and in all of our best interest if you just put your fucking head down and just take these beatings and whatever we do to you because this, we're doing It for the greater good.

Rivka

Yeah, this first scene and this first section sets up so much. One of the big themes in this movie is the war, obviously the class war, but also the war between idealism and this ideology and these concepts that the ruling class used to keep people In place. Like you shared, Order is that barrier that holds

[34:16] Untitled

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Rivka

That'm like oh gross like oh yeah like child sex slaves yeah for sure yeah which again not say there's all kinds of exploitation but it's like this I think is really interesting because The fear of children being used for sexual purposes and we see that we see that ideology being used in the right wing pretty successfully. You know, Hillary Clinton has these kids in the bottom of a pizza place or whatever that shit is. You know, Jeffrey Epstein, not saying that those those aren't like realities. But I think it was so smart to play on that for the audience to be like, oh, like gross. That's what's happening. And what we find out at the very end is that Wilford is exploiting these children to keep the engine of the train moving. So they're literally, there's this stunning scene at the end where they lift up the bottom of the train and they find the child in the engine, in the fire, in the heat, running this train That's supposed to be this miracle train, but it's just tale as old as time. It's child labor. It's what Marx's capital is all about. It always comes down to the most vulnerable,

[01:05:26] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:04:16 - 01:05:26)

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Rivka

This Asian woman and a young black child. And like, I don't know, because I was just just I was just like, there's something also about blowing up these patriarchal systems and the intersection of patriarchy with capitalism

Frank

That I think was another subtext oh for sure absolutely and speaking of the the top patriarch capitalist then we actually get into Wilford's cabin played by Ed Harris again you're like Ed Harris fucking awesome Truman Show Truman Show yeah great always Ed a great role for him is just being like the man behind the curtain. Then we get this great scene between Chris Evans and Ed Harris, where Ed Harris is against, you know, spewing all of the ideology, all of the propaganda. You know, we must always strive for balance. And again, reiterates this idea that like this train is a closed ecosystem and everything that we have done, all of the horrors that you have endured, we did it for the sake of humanity. And then there's the, I think, my favorite line in the movie, Ed Harris says, everyone has their preordained position and everyone is in their place except you. And Chris Evans says, that's what people in the best place say to people in the worst place. And I thought that really, that just like, that's the fucking movie. That's the whole thing right there. And that's

3. Computer says no: is AI making healthcare worse for women?

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Show notes > Artificial intelligence has the potential to drastically improve so much of our lives. But it all depends on feeding the algorithms good data. Thanks to the gender data gap, when it comes to women, this is something of a problem. In this episode, Caroline investigates how, in a world where women’s heart attacks are already systematically underdiagnosed, artificial intelligence might actually be making healthcare worse for women. She also uncovers an intriguing solution – and dabbles in pre-crime.
> Bonus episodes featuring behind the scenes chats, rants, and stories from Caroline’s community of generic female pals are released every Friday for Tortoise members and Tortoise+ subscribers on Apple Podcasts.
>
> Just subscribe to Tortoise on Apple Podcasts, or join Tortoise as a member to get this, plus even more content and invites to exclusive newsroom events with the code Caroline50. Visit tortoisemedia.com/Caroline
> Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Snips

[02:31] Surviving Heart Attack

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:15 - 02:36)

✨ Summary

Sally was taken to warwick hospital and sent home that same evening with medication to treat indigestion. Then a couple of days later, ended up back in hospital with the same chest pain. A student nurse saw thee c g and she was thy, oh my goodness, this is saying you having heartatack. So she called the cardiologist down. Three cardiologists stood around her bed,. all of them said, now, look, c c g is telling us you’re having a har atack, but we actually don’t believe it, because you’re 36, you don’t drink, you don’t smoke, you have you’re not overweight, and

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 3

And by then, because my breathing was so forced and i was panicking, i suppose, my hands went all crunched up and i couldn't open my hands. And so the ambulance guis presumed i was having a panic attack, and i was trying to explain while i am panicking now. But it didn't start that way.

Speaker 1

Sally was taken to warwick hospital and sent home that same evening with medication to treat indigestion.

Speaker 3

Then a couple of days later, ended up back in hospital with the same chest pain. Was given an e c g. And a student nurse saw thee c g and she was thy, oh my goodness, this is saying you having heartatack. So she called the cardiologist down. So i had three cardiologists standing around my bed, all of them saying, now, look, c c g is telling us you're having a har atack, but we actually don't believe it, because you're 36, you Don't drink, you don't smoke, you have you're not overweight, and you don't have any family history of heart attacks.

Speaker 1

Sally tells me, one of the cardiologists, they were all men, by the way, said he would bet her a million pounds, that she wasn't having a heart attack.

[04:09] Bias and Health Care

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✨ Summary

i start off this episode with all sorts of ideas about how to fix bias an a i. But by the end, as you’ll hear, i realized that maybe i was approaching this all wrong. This was an episode that really forced me to re evaluate my thinking. And if you’re the cardiologist that oe sally a million pounds, get in touch. I’ll get you her bank details.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Sally tells me, one of the cardiologists, they were all men, by the way, said he would bet her a million pounds, that she wasn't having a heart attack. But she was. And if sally had been diagnosed sooner, her heart might have ended up being less damaged. I'm caroline creato perris, and this is visible women, my new weekly podcast from tortoise, investigating how we finally fix a world designed for men. In this episode, i'm actually not just looking at heart attacks. I'm looking at bias and health care, and whether the emerging use of a i means it's about to get a lot i start off this episode with all sorts of ideas about how to fix bias an a i. But by the end, as you'll hear, i realized that maybe i was approaching this all wrong. This was an episode that really forced me to re evaluate my thinking. Oh, and if you're the cardiologist that oe sally a million pounds, get in touch. I'll get you her bank details. It turns out that sally has a condition called spontaneous coronary artery dissection, or scad. Scat. Has until fairly recently, been thought of as a rare condition, but some cardiologists now think it's actually been historically under diagnosed. It's the most common cause of heart attacks in women under the age of forty, as well as in women who are either pregnant or have recently given birth. And more than 90 % of scad patients are female.

[06:31] The Gender Data Gap in Health Care

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✨ Summary

Sally’s story is shocking, but i didn’t find it surprising. Women who have a heart attack in the u k are 50 % more likely to be misdiagnosed than men. They are also more likely to die. The gender data gap in health care was actually what prompted me to write my book in visible.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

The parametic did an e c g to check sally's heartbeat, but she knew the equipment he was using wouldn't pick up her kind of heart attack. Sally explained this to him, but it didn't help. Her husband ended up phoning her cardiologist.

Speaker 5

And even my cardiologist was almost begging this paramedic, no, please. You must take her to the bigger hospital.

Speaker 3

And he still was arguing. So it took 20 minutes for this paramedic to say, o all right, then we'll take you to the further hospital. And ha, could have been the last 20 minutes of my life.

Speaker 1

Sally's story is shocking, but i didn't find it surprising. Women who have a heart attack in the u k. Are 50 % more likely to be misdiagnosed than men. They are also more likely to die. And basically because the vast majority of medical data we have collected historically and continue to collect to day, including in cardio vascular research, has been in the male Body. Male humans, male animals, even male cells. The gender data gap in health care was actually what prompted me to write my book in visible.

[08:41] The Symptoms Aren’t Really the Problem

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✨ Summary

Most common symptom of a heart attack is chest pain. Some women will experience different symptoms like breathlessness, nausea and fatigue. Doctors are often not thinking about female rist factors when they’re assessing patients. This leads to under diagnosis which in turn fuels the perception that heart attacks don’t happen in women. And so the cycle continues.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

She's a consultant cardiologist at a busy teaching hospital in south wales, and 50 % of her work load is women. Nichat tells me that the most common symptom of a heart attack, for both men and women, is chest pain. For some women, the chest pain may feel more like a tightness across the chest. Research also shows that some women will experience different symptoms like breathlessness, nausea, fatigue. But nichot says the symptoms aren't really the problem. The problem is that even when women do present with the classic symptoms of a heart attack, like sally did, no one believes that they are, in fact having a heart attack.

Speaker 3

Women themselves present late on the whole, and when they do present, their symptoms are often dismissed as stress and anxiety related.

Speaker 1

It's a vicious circle. The lack of research on women means doctors know less about what a heart attack looks like in women. This leads to under diagnosis, which in turn fuels the perception that heart attacks don't happen in women. And so the cycle continues. Nichat tells me that doctors are often not thinking about female rist factors when they're assessing patients.

It’s Not Really About Sports

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Show notes > In the opening episode for TransLash Media’s riveting new mini-series, our trusted award-winning journalist Imara Jones introduces us to a key component of the anti-trans hate machine through a historic case: Hecox v. Little. She walks us through the introduction to HB 500, the law that made Idaho the first state to ban transgender athletes participating in sports, and the investigation that quickly followed suit. We hear from aspiring college athlete Lindsay Hecox, as well as Ritchie Eppink, the Legal Director of the ACLU of Idaho, and Chase Strangio, Deputy Director for Transgender Justice, who aided her through her case. And Imara receives an unexpected surprise when Idaho Representative Barbara Ehardt, the sponsor of the Fairness in Women’s Sports Act (HB 500), takes her call. In the end we learn about the organization behind these bills, a far-right group called Alliance Defending Freedom.
> You can connect with us on social media!
> Follow TransLash Media @translashmedia on Instagram , Twitter and Facebook .
> Follow Imara Jones on Twitter (@ imarajones ) and Instagram (@ imara_jones_ )
> Follow our guests on social media:
> Ritchie Eppink: @eppink (Twitter)
> Chase Strangio: @chasestrangio (Instagram) @chasestrangio (Twitter)
>
> Podcast Credits: Executive Producer and host, Imara Jones; Oliver-Ash Kleine is Senior Producer.
> Tiler Wilson, Annie Ning and Ruby Fludzinski are our Associate Producers. Sydney Bauer is our Researcher. Audrey Quinn edited this series. Sound design and mixing by Alexander Charles Adams. Montana Thomas is our production coordinator. Audio engineering and production from Jaye McAuliffe. Sound editing and production from Callie Wright. Gillian Branstetter handles PR with additional support from Elle Communications. Digital strategy by Daniela Capistrano of DCAP MEDIA. Social media font-size:0.75em;'> Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Episode AI notes

  1. Running with a team can be more enjoyable and motivating than running alone. It is important to be true to oneself and embrace individual identity. Lindsay’s motivations for running are genuine and centered around personal well-being and friendship. Banning girls like Lindsay from participating in sports lacks evidence and raises questions about lawmakers’ priorities.
  2. The premise of the bill banning trans athletes is unsupported by evidence. Scientific experts confirm that once trans women reach the same hormone levels as cis women, there is no difference in athletic performance. Major sports organizations support trans women competing and believe it does not disadvantage cis women.
  3. Idaho’s largest employers and various groups in the community opposed the bill and called for its veto. The bill’s progress did not align with the desires or problems of Idahoans. The Idaho attorney general stated that the bill is likely to be found unconstitutional. Multiple parties advised against passing the bill, including lawmakers, corporations, and citizens.
  4. The speaker sought help from national conservative organizations outside of Idaho, specifically Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF). The ADF is considered the legal branch of the right-wing Christian values movement in America. The ADF has played a pivotal role in influencing anti-trans sports bills and pushing discriminatory state laws.
  5. The Idaho bill regarding anti-trans sports became a prototype for similar legislation in other states. ADF, labeled a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, goes beyond traditional Christian fundamentalism and discriminates against LGBTQ people using religious liberty as a reason. The state of Idaho deferred to ADF in the appellate case defense, symbolizing ADF’s influence and priorities in the bill. Standing up against anti-trans legislation is crucial to protect women’s body autonomy and rights, as it affects all girls and women.
  6. The anti-trans sports movement has a racial aspect, originating from backlash against the inclusion of non-white athletes in track competitions in Connecticut.

Snips

[07:27] Running with a Team: The Importance of Community in Athletics

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✨ Summary

Running alone lacks the excitement of running with friends who motivate each other to be the best athletes. Lindsay, a girl with pure and simple motivations, just wants to run, feel good about her body, and have friends. Banning girls like Lindsay is unfounded and opposes the views of organizations like the NCAA, USA Track and Field, and the International Olympic Committee, who all support trans women competing without harm to cis women.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

Running by yourself isn't as fun as running with a team, especially with friends and you both push each other to be the best athlete possible. I was missing that aspect, especially since I didn't really have the full experience. So to speak, I was pretending to be someone I wasn't in the high school. It was just kind of sad to me that I never did it as Lindsay.

Speaker 1

Now I've spent hours talking to Lindsay, and what sticks with me after every conversation is just how pure and simple her motivations are. She just wants to run and feel good about her body and have friends. Who's opposed to that? And why would banning girls like Lindsay be a hell that lawmakers want to die on? Especially when the entire premise of the bill is founded on assumptions that aren't based on any kind of evidence at all. Now I know this is going to be a little wonky, but the people whose job it is to look at the science and decide what's fair say that once trans women reach the same hormone levels as cis women, That there's no difference in athletic performance. The National Collegiate Athletic Association, USA Track and Field, and the International Olympic Committee all say that trans women can compete and that it doesn't hurt cis women.

[07:00] The Importance of Running with a Team

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✨ Summary

Running with friends is more fun and motivating than running alone. The narrator regrets not being true to themselves in high school. They admire Lindsay’s pure and simple motivations for running. Banning girls like Lindsay is unjust and based on unfounded assumptions.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

Running by yourself isn't as fun as running with a team, especially with friends and you both push each other to be the best athlete possible. I was missing that aspect, especially since I didn't really have the full experience. So to speak, I was pretending to be someone I wasn't in the high school. It was just kind of sad to me that I never did it as Lindsay.

Speaker 1

Now I've spent hours talking to Lindsay, and what sticks with me after every conversation is just how pure and simple her motivations are. She just wants to run and feel good about her body and have friends. Who's opposed to that? And why would banning girls like Lindsay be a hell that lawmakers want to die on? Especially when the entire premise of the bill is founded on assumptions that aren't based on any kind of evidence at all.

[09:04] Idaho’s largest employers and voices of the people unite against bill, calling for veto

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✨ Summary

Idaho’s largest employers, including Chobani, HP, Micron, and Cliff Barr, as well as doctors, counselors, school boards association, and students, urged the governor to veto the bill. Even the attorney general stated that the bill is likely to be found unconstitutional. Despite widespread opposition, the bill continued to move through the legislature. Something bigger than the voices of Idahoans seemed to be at play. From lawmakers to corporations to citizens, everyone was saying to slow down and not pass the bill. But the bill’s sponsor, representative Barbara E., remained determined.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 5

Idaho's largest employers, Chobani, HP, Micron, Cliff Barr, came out against the bill. Idaho doctors, Idaho counselors, Idaho school boards association, students, including student athletes in Idaho. They were all calling the governor's office. They were all urging the governor to veto this bill. Richie says it just didn't make sense that the bill was still moving through the state legislature. They can't be explained by what Idahoans want or by problems in Idaho. It's something else.

Speaker 1

There was something bigger at work here than the voices of the people of Idaho. There had to be because even the Idaho attorney general had issued a formal opinion to say that HB 500 is likely to be found unconstitutional by the courts. Also from laboring lawmakers to corporations to citizens to the state's attorney general. All we're saying, slow down, don't do this. But the sponsor of the bill, representative Barbara E.

[11:46] Reaching out for Help: A State Lawmaker’s Challenge

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✨ Summary

The narrator jumps right into asking someone who helped them, but also wants to give a detailed answer. They faced roadblocks and reached out to family groups for help, but couldn’t move forward. Instead, they contacted national conservative organizations, specifically Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF).

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

I didn't know how much time I was going to have. So I jumped right in and I asked her, who helped you?

Speaker 2

As you ask that question, can I give a little bit long answer? I think that we know.

Speaker 1

I think that we want to hear as full some of an answer on each of the questions that I have. So I would encourage you to stretch your legs if you if you wanted to do that. Okay.

Speaker 2

Okay. Thank you. I set forth trying to figure out how to how to do this. Just kept hitting roadblocks and had reached out to quite a few pro family groups. And literally they were telling me we couldn't go forward. Let me impact how this normally works.

Speaker 1

Even a state lawmaker wants to draft a bill, especially a relatively new lawmaker like Barbara, they rely on their staff. They rely on their legislative services office, or they reach out to nonprofits in their state for help. But Barbara made a beeline to national conservative organizations outside of Idaho for help.

Speaker 2

I felt kind of like a hidden impasse. And that's actually when I reached out to aligns to any freedom.

Speaker 1

Well, at least now we had the name of that outside group, Alliance Defending Freedom, or as they're commonly known, ADF.

[13:06] The Origin of Anti-Trans Sports Bills Revealed

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✨ Summary

They discovered that the legislation needed to be taken more seriously, leading to significant changes. These changes have influenced similar bills in other states. The speaker expresses surprise and relief that their reaction is not visible. After months of investigation, they have learned about the workings of the anti-trans hate machine, with ADF playing a pivotal role. ADF is believed to have written the Idaho bill, which has now become a prototype for other anti-trans sports bills nationwide. The speaker’s job is now at risk because ADF prefers to remain anonymous. Despite numerous attempts to contact them, ADF has refused to engage. ADF is considered the legal branch of the right-wing Christian values movement in America.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 2

And then they decided that they were going to get more serious about this legislation. And then we completely changed it and this is where you see what, of course, many are using now in these other states.

Speaker 1

As I'm hearing this, I'm really glad that Barbara can't see my face because it's totally cracked. And everybody who knows me knows, I can't mask my surprise. We've been investigating how the anti-trans hate machine works for months. And within minutes, she's just told me about a big piece of the whole plan. She's saying that ADF not only basically wrote the Idaho bill, but that it's become the prototype for all those other anti-trans sports bills that are popping up all over the country. Now my job is also on the floor because ADF likes to mask its role. We reached out to them multiple times, like multiple, and no one would talk to us. They're basically the legal arm of the entire right-wing Christian values movement in this country.

[14:26] ADF: Beyond Traditional Christian Fundamentalism

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✨ Summary

The Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF), labeled a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, takes Christian fundamentalism to an extreme. They weaponize the law to discriminate against LGBTQ people, using religious liberty as a reason. ADF has achieved success, winning cases like Masterpiece Cakeshop and Hobby Lobby in the Supreme Court, while also pushing for discriminatory state laws, such as the model bathroom bill targeting transgender individuals in 2016.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

In their drive to do so, ADF goes far beyond the traditional Christian fundamentalism that you might have heard of, well, all your entire life. This is not your grandmother's Christian fundamentalism. This is way beyond that. In fact, the Southern Poverty Law Center has designated ADF as a hate group. That puts ADF with its innocuous sounding name, Alliance of In Freedom, in the same category as the Ku Klux Klan and Neo-Nazis. ADF's extremist hate is particularly directed at LGBTQ people, but rather than burning crosses or carrying tiki torches, they weaponize the law. How do they do it? They sue governments claiming religious liberty as a reason to discriminate. And y'all should know that they've been highly effective, taking big-name cases like Master Peace Cake Shop and Hobby Lobby all the way to the Supreme Court and winning them. They also push state legislatures to legalize discrimination. ADF wrote the model bathroom bill that a bunch of states used in 2016 to try to tell trans people where to pee.

[21:23] The State of Idaho Defers to ADF in Appellate Case Defense

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (20:25 - 21:22)

✨ Summary

The state of Idaho unexpectedly allows ADF, a private organization, to make the final rebuttal in defense of their law. This gesture suggests that ADF’s priorities and ideologies are the driving force behind the bill and the state’s defense of it.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 5

The state gets to go last to make their final rebuttal. It's the last thing that the court hears before the court makes a decision sometime down the road.

Speaker 1

This is Richie Epping again.

Speaker 5

Lindsey's lawyer with the ACLU of Idaho. I've never seen this happen before, but the state waived their time on rebuttal and gave it to ADF.

Speaker 1

So he's saying that the state of Idaho deferred to ADF, a private organization to defend the state's law, HB 500.

Speaker 5

For me, it's symbolic. It shows that really it's ADF's priorities, it's ADF's ideologies that is driving this bill and the state's defense of it.

Speaker 1

So I'm sorry, the state of Idaho deferred to ADF to close out its argument in the appellate case on why their law is constitutional.

[28:21] ADF’s Anti-Trans Legislation Is a Debate About Women’s Body Autonomy

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (27:22 - 28:25)

✨ Summary

Standing up against bills and laws that control women and limit their decisions is crucial in order to protect their rights. The attack on trans girls by groups like ADF extends to all women and girls, as it seeks to impose their worldview using biological arguments. This case divides trans and cis girls, but it ultimately impacts all girls and women. It’s important to acknowledge the racial aspect as well, as the anti-trans sports movement originated from backlash against the inclusion of Terri and Andrea, who are not white, in track competitions in Connecticut.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 7

It is so important to stand up against these kinds of bills and laws because they're so interrelated to the ways that laws are passed to control women generally to limit the decisions That women can make with their own bodies. When a group like ADF is coming after girls who are trans, they're coming after all women and girls and they're going to be willing to sweep up all of us, all girls and women, in order to Achieve what is their worldview or end goal.

Speaker 1

And this worldview is about using biological arguments to limit women's rights. This case is pitting trans girls and cis girls against each other, but it's actually an attack on all girls and women. However, there's another big part of this. And that's race. We cannot lose sight of the fact that this anti-trans sports movement began as a direct backlash to the mere presence of Terri and Andrea in track lines with white girls in Connecticut.

S7 E3: Ships, Swords, and Fences

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Episode metadata

Show notes > From the voyages of Columbus and Vasco da Gama to colonial conquest and the Atlantic Slave Trade, to the privatization of land in western Europe: humanity’s turn toward the capitalist world we live in now.
> By John Biewen, with co-host Ellen McGirt. Interviews with Jayati Ghosh, Jason Hickel, Jessica Moody, Charisse Burden-Stelly, Silvia Federici, and Eleanor Janega. Story editor: Loretta Williams. Music by Michelle Osis, Lilli Haydn, Chris Westlake, Alex Symcox, and Goodnight, Lucas. Music consulting by Joe Augustine of Narrative Music. "Capitalism” is a production of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University, in partnership with Imperative 21. 
>
>
> Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices
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Snips

[12:47] The Black Death in the 1340s strengthened peasants’ bargaining power, leading to the collapse of feudalism.

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (11:06 - 12:47)

  • The Black Death in the 1340s strengthened peasants’ bargaining power, leading to the collapse of feudalism.
  • From 1350 to 1500, a more egalitarian society emerged, improving living standards for commoners.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 6

And this effectively strengthened the bargaining power of peasants and workers and weakened the bargaining power of the feudal lords. And the peasant revolutionaries recognized that this was an extraordinary opportunity, and they took it and they managed to successfully overthrow feudalism. Fetalism basically collapses during this period, right?

Speaker 1

Historians say by about 1400, the most restrictive form of feudalism, serfdom, had all but died out in England. Most peasants were no longer bound to their lord. They now paid rent in money and could move on if they could find a better deal on another manner. The diminished population also freed up land that effectively belonged to no one. So people shared it among themselves, for subsistence farming, grazing and hunting.

Speaker 6

In the place of feudalism after its collapse, a more egalitarian, more democratic society emerged where peasants and workers had more direct control over the means of production, Along with basically collectively managed commons like the forests and the pastures and the rivers, etc. And the key principle that was at play here was that everyone should have access to the resources that are necessary for survival. This is considered kind of the right of habitation. And it was a remarkable period in the sense that during this era, more or less from 1350 to about 1500, living standards of commoners improved pretty dramatically. We see nutrition goes up, welfare ratios go up in terms of real wages, rents go down.

Speaker 1

Some historians have talked

[13:14] The 1400s were comparatively better for ordinary working people in England and some European countries.

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (12:46 - 13:21)

  • The 1400s were comparatively better for ordinary working people in England and some European countries.
  • This period occurred between the crumbling of feudalism and the rise of capitalism.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Some historians have talked about a golden age for the European peasantry in that century and a half, as feudalist arrangements crumbled and capitalist systems had not yet risen on A large scale. Others say golden age is a wild exaggeration. After all, most late medieval peasants were extremely poor by today's standards. But most experts do agree the 1400s were a better time for ordinary working people in England and some other European countries, compared with their conditions before that period Or after.

[17:48] Some historians argue that large-scale enslavement and colonization were not coincidental to capitalism’s rise in Western Europe.

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  • Some historians argue that large-scale enslavement and colonization were not coincidental to capitalism’s rise in Western Europe.
  • These industrial-scale moneymaking schemes were built on the subjugation and exploitation of people and resources in Africa, Asia, and the New World.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

As we discussed in our season five series, some historians make a powerful argument that large-scale projects of enslavement and colonization didn't just happen to get rolling around The time that capitalism was taking root in Western Europe.

[18:03] Large-scale enslavement and colonization projects weren’t just coincidental with capitalism’s rise in Western Europe.

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  • Large-scale enslavement and colonization projects weren’t just coincidental with capitalism’s rise in Western Europe.
  • These exploitative ventures in Africa, Asia, and the New World were actually capitalism’s announcement of its arrival.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

As we discussed in our season five series, some historians make a powerful argument that large-scale projects of enslavement and colonization didn't just happen to get rolling around The time that capitalism was taking root in Western Europe. The claim is instead that those industrial scale moneymaking schemes built on the subjugation and exploitation of people and resources in Africa, Asia, and the New World. That those ventures were capitalism announcing its arrival.

[22:39] Adam Smith, the renowned capitalist thinker, viewed the voyages of Columbus and da Gama as crucial events in human history.

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  • Adam Smith, the renowned capitalist thinker, viewed the voyages of Columbus and da Gama as crucial events in human history.
  • Smith acknowledged the benefits for Europeans but also recognized the ‘dreadful misfortunes’ inflicted on indigenous peoples due to military superiority.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

If it seems like a radical, anti-capitalist argument to call those voyages an important starting gun for capitalism, it's striking then to see what Adam Smith of all people had to say.

Speaker 3

The discovery of America and that of a passage to the East Indies by the Cape of Good Hope are the two greatest and most important events recorded in the history of mankind.

Speaker 1

Adam Smith, the Scottish philosopher and the 18th century's greatest thinker on capitalism, in his landmark book, The Wealth of Nations, published in 1776. In this remarkable passage, Smith reflects on the pros and cons of those world-altering discoveries and what they unleashed. For him, looking at it from the British Isles in the 1770s, the pros outweighed the cons.

Speaker 3

By uniting in some measure the most distant parts of the world, by enabling them to relieve one another's wants, to increase one another's enjoyments, and to encourage one another's Industry, their general tendency would seem to be beneficial.

Speaker 1

One another's is doing some serious work there, isn't it? These economic relationships across the world, by then two and a half centuries old, had created great material benefit for some. But Smith did acknowledge the other side of the coin, what he called the dreadful misfortunes that befell people in the East and West Indies, since Europeans had found their lands. Benefits on one side, misery on the other. The reason? The imbalance of power. The more advanced ships and weapons that one side possessed.

Speaker 3

At the particular time when these discoveries were made, the superiority of force happened to be so great on the side of the Europeans that they were unable to commit with impunity, Every sort of injustice in these remote countries. In

[23:07] In the 16th century, elites began leveraging wealth to build new money-making capacity.

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  • In the 16th century, elites began leveraging wealth to build new money-making capacity.
  • This shift was driven by the need to fund constant warfare between Western European aristocracies.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

The last episode, we made the point that before capitalism, the people at the top of the social order mostly just sat on their wealth, or spent it on cathedrals or castles or nice things For themselves. For the most part, they didn't leverage it to build new money-making capacity. Starting in the 16th century, this changed. By that time, elites had begun to see how they could amass bigger piles of wealth than ever before and use those piles to make even bigger piles.

[23:49] Before the 16th century, elites primarily spent their wealth on non-productive assets.

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  • Before the 16th century, elites primarily spent their wealth on non-productive assets.
  • Starting in the 16th century, they began leveraging their wealth to generate more wealth, driven by motives such as financing wars.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Starting in the 16th century, this changed. By that time, elites had begun to see how they could amass bigger piles of wealth than ever before and use those piles to make even bigger piles. The Western European aristocracy's had strong motives for doing so. For one, they were constantly at war with one another. They needed gold and silver coin to build better armies and weapons. Enter mercantilism, a brand of capitalism designed not to lift the general welfare, but to fill the nation's coffers. Kingdoms sent ships across oceans to trade, consistently using force to colonize other lands, to take what they wanted for

[24:47] Recent research suggests Europe’s development stemmed from resources plundered from colonized nations, not the other way around.

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  • Recent research suggests Europe’s development stemmed from resources plundered from colonized nations, not the other way around.
  • Colonial powers enabled rapid capital accumulation through this plunder, facilitating European investment and growth.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

We, quote unquote, the West, developed places like India by bringing our more advanced societies and systems to that part of the world. What do you say to that?

Speaker 3

Well, there's a lot of recent economic history research that suggests that the causation was really the other way around, that Europe was able to develop and able to find the resources

[25:16] Recent research suggests Europe’s development stemmed from plundering colonized nations, not the other way around.

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  • Recent research suggests Europe’s development stemmed from plundering colonized nations, not the other way around.
  • Resources extracted from these countries, like India, fueled Europe’s Industrial and Agrarian Revolutions.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 3

Well, there's a lot of recent economic history research that suggests that the causation was really the other way around, that Europe was able to develop and able to find the resources To invest and have rapid capital accumulation because of the plunder that was enabled by these colonial powers.

Speaker 1

Ghosh cites a recent book by two other renowned Indian scholars, Utsa Patnaik and Prabhat Patnaik, called and Imperialism.

Speaker 3

Which basically talks about the significant role played by the transfer, the drain, from countries like India. India was one of the countries, but there were many others, in enabling not just the Industrial Revolution, but even the Agrarian Revolution before that.

[26:45] Recent research suggests that European development was fueled by resources extracted from colonized countries like India.

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (24:36 - 26:46)

  • Recent research suggests that European development was fueled by resources extracted from colonized countries like India.
  • This challenges the narrative that colonization led to the development of these regions.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 3

Well, there's a lot of recent economic history research that suggests that the causation was really the other way around, that Europe was able to develop and able to find the resources To invest and have rapid capital accumulation because of the plunder that was enabled by these colonial powers.

Speaker 1

Ghosh cites a recent book by two other renowned Indian scholars, Utsa Patnaik and Prabhat Patnaik, called and Imperialism.

Speaker 3

Which basically talks about the significant role played by the transfer, the drain, from countries like India. India was one of the countries, but there were many others, in enabling not just the Industrial Revolution, but even the Agrarian Revolution before that.

Speaker 1

In the early years of their trade with India, the British were more or less normal customers. They bought things like rice, textiles, and spices, and paid with silver, just like French traders in India. But the East India Company gradually colonized the subcontinent, starting with the Battle of Plassie in 1757. The British defeated a stronger Indian force thanks to a betrayal. The head of the Bengali army switched sides to help the Brits, in return for being made Britain's puppet ruler of Bengal. The British then used that foothold to push out the leaders of other Indian principalities or pressure to support British interests. As Britain gained complete control, it forced Indians to sell their products for low prices and pay more for British goods. It also imposed taxes on Indian peasants and small business people, and used those tax receipts to buy Indian goods. Under that scheme, the British weren't paying for the stuff they loaded onto their ships, Indians were. In their recent book, the Potnayaks analyzed historical records and came up with a stunning estimate. That between 1765 and 1938, Britain extracted the equivalent of $45 trillion

[29:12] Marx called “primitive accumulation” the process by which nations acquired initial wealth, later used to become richer.

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  • Marx called “primitive accumulation” the process by which nations acquired initial wealth, later used to become richer.
  • This process often involved theft, such as enslavement, unfair trade, and seizing resources.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

He wrote about primitive accumulation, not just at the level of the individual businessperson, but on a bigger scale. How did some nations first acquire the wealth that they then used to get much, much richer? The answer, for Marx, was theft. The theft of people's labor through enslavement, the theft of raw and manufactured goods through one-sided trading relationships leveraged by

[32:10] In medieval England, peasants divided their time between working on a lord’s land and their own plots, including common lands.

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  • In medieval England, peasants divided their time between working on a lord’s land and their own plots, including common lands.
  • Starting in the 15th century, the ‘enclosure’ movement led to the fencing off of these common lands, forcing peasants to work for wages and paving the way for industrialization.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

In episode two, we talked about peasants under feudalism and the typical division in their lives. They'd work roughly half the time on the Lord's Land and the other half doing subsistence farming on their own smaller plots, assigned for their use under customary agreements and On common lands that local peasant families shared.

Speaker 4

And they would be given areas for grazing for animals. They would be given certain rights. Rights, for example, to take wood from the woods so that they could use it for fuel.

Speaker 1

That is Silvia Federici, the well-known feminist philosopher and social scientist, a professor emerita at Hofstra University.

Speaker 4

By the 15th century and then more later, you begin to have a process whereby these peasants who had been sitting and working and reproducing themselves on the lands the nobility of the Aristocracy you know are increasingly expelled. And the process of expulsion is called the enclosure because literally the lands that they used to have for grazing, for taking fuel, for agricultural product, they would be fenced Off, and they would be pushed off and then forced to continue to work in the same villages but now for the pittance, for the wage.

[34:19] Enclosure, starting in the 1500s, privatized formerly common lands in Britain.

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (32:24 - 34:23)

  • Enclosure, starting in the 1500s, privatized formerly common lands in Britain.
  • This forced peasants into towns and cities, marking a shift in the concept of land ownership from communal to individual.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

And closure. I'll admit I had never heard of it until a few years ago. But it looms large in European history, nowhere more than in Britain. It marked a deep shift in how Westerners think about land. Is either privately owned, an individual, or say a corporation, holds the deed, or it's public. And even with public land, we can point to the government entity that owns it, federal, state, county, city. Get the hell off my property. What? I'm just saying. And don't come back. That's from Breaking Bad. Most of human history, people didn't treat land as personal property. In medieval times, in Europe and some other places, only kings and emperors owned land. Or think of indigenous people in the Americas, Africa, Australia, right up to the recent past and even today in some places. Tribes formed customary understandings about their territory and would sometimes fight over incursions or invasions. But individuals didn't draw lines and say, this patch of the earth is officially and legally mine. Okay, but enclosure was a big deal.

Speaker 4

Oh, enclosure was a huge big deal.

Speaker 1

Because historian Ellen or Janneke of the London School of Economics. She says enclosure shoved millions of people against will out of the only life they knew in the countryside.

Speaker 4

Where you have a community, where you have obligations that go both ways. So you have obligations to your landlord, but your landlord has obligations to you as well. And then that turns into land can be land is owned, owned, you need to get out of here. And I don't know. Good luck to you. You know.

Speaker 1

Over several centuries, starting in the 1500s, the British Parliament passed thousands of acts, privatizing almost seven million acres of formerly common

[35:07] Starting in the 1500s, British Parliament passed acts privatizing common lands, displacing peasants.

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (34:13 - 35:11)

  • Starting in the 1500s, British Parliament passed acts privatizing common lands, displacing peasants.
  • This was partly driven by technological advancements like improved plows and crop rotation, which reduced the need for farm labor.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Over several centuries, starting in the 1500s, the British Parliament passed thousands of acts, privatizing almost seven million acres of formerly common lands, allowing landlords To send peasants away.

Speaker 4

It's a displacement. You know, like, you had to go somewhere, and that somewhere was often towns and cities, you know. And so it's a huge reimagining of what the workforce is.

Speaker 1

Why does this happen? Yannick says part of the answer is technology. In the same way that powerful machinery has whittled down the need for farm labor right up to the present. That happened hundreds of years ago too. Improved crop rotation practices, better heavier plows, the use of horses instead of cattle to pull the plow faster. Many landowners stopped raising crops and got into the wool business because grazing sheep took a lot less labor and they could make bigger profits.

[36:38] Thomas More criticized enclosure in his 1516 book Utopia, arguing that sheep were “devouring men” due to landlords driving peasants off the land for wool production.

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  • Thomas More criticized enclosure in his 1516 book Utopia, arguing that sheep were “devouring men” due to landlords driving peasants off the land for wool production.
  • This led to a rise in vagrancy and theft.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Thomas Moore, best known as a Catholic writer, judge, and government official under Henry VIII, was a critic of enclosure. He wrote in his book Utopia in 1516 that because landlords were enclosing land and driving off peasants to raise wool, the sheep of England were in effect feasting on the people. For sooth, my lord, your sheep were wont to be so meek and tame and so small eaters.

Speaker 3

Now, as I hear say, they become great devourers and so wild that they eat up and swallow down the very men themselves.

Speaker 1

Thomas More also blamed enclosure and the resulting waves of rural refugees turned loose across the land, for an alarming rise in vagrancy and theft.

Speaker 3

Away they trudge, I say, out of their known and accustomed houses, finding no place to rest in. What can they then else do but steal, and then justly be hanged or else

[37:27] 16th-century vagrancy was a significant social issue stemming from people resisting the new rules of enclosure and exploitation.

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  • 16th-century vagrancy was a significant social issue stemming from people resisting the new rules of enclosure and exploitation.
  • They viewed wage labor as a form of slavery, choosing to become beggars, bandits, and migrants instead.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Begging.

Speaker 4

Yeah, many people became vagrant. You know, the 16th century is the century of the great vagrancy. Sylvia Federici. All these people without nothing who do not want to submit to the new rules, they don't want to submit to the new forms of exploitation, who look at wage labor as a form of slavery. And they take the road, they become beggars, they become bandits, they become, you know, people, sometimes migrants. So vagrancy is considered one of the main social problems in Europe of the 16th century.

Speaker 1

Just as peasants had revolted against feudalism, now a couple centuries later, people rose up against enclosure.

[42:07] While slavery existed throughout history, the New World slave economy differed drastically in scale.

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  • While slavery existed throughout history, the New World slave economy differed drastically in scale.
  • It became industrial in its vastness, contrasting with smaller-scale caste-based systems.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

And that question of scale is crucial. Lots of people today, and I'm thinking of white folks here in the US, like to say, well, all through history, everybody did slavery. There was nothing new about the slave-based economy that Westerners built in the New World.

Speaker 2

Well, that's about half right, isn't it? Slavery was commonplace across the world up until a couple hundred years ago, but it was often based on systems of caste, where people fighting wars would capture some individuals And haul them away as slaves.

[42:28] While slavery existed before the New World, the chattel slavery system was distinct.

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  • While slavery existed before the New World, the chattel slavery system was distinct.
  • It was designed as the foundation of a mode of production, operating on an industrial scale, marking a shift from previous slavery practices.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

Well, that's about half right, isn't it? Slavery was commonplace across the world up until a couple hundred years ago, but it was often based on systems of caste, where people fighting wars would capture some individuals And haul them away as slaves.

Speaker 1

Right. But to get at the point that this was something different, Professor Cherise Burdin Steli again, with a clip that some listeners will remember from season five.

Speaker 2

As many scholars have pointed out, slavery has been a feature of many societies, But slavery as

[49:53] Widespread human well-being didn’t dramatically improve until 350 years after the dawn of capitalism (around 1870).

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  • Widespread human well-being didn’t dramatically improve until 350 years after the dawn of capitalism (around 1870).
  • This suggests other factors besides capitalism contributed to increased standards of living.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

We're placing the dawn of capitalism at the beginning of the 1500s, that means we had 350 years of capitalism before a large swath of humanity started to live with comfort and abundance. Hmm.

Speaker 1

Maybe capitalism the sure ticket to human well-being all by itself. Maybe some other things had to happen.

Speaker 2

So, stay tuned, but it feels like we need to say a little more about these two big developments and what unites them. Colonization and slavery on one hand and closure on the other. How are they related?

Speaker 1

I think if we could put it into one word, it would be commodification. In season five, our climate series, we talked about thingification, quoting Amé Césaire and Dr. King.

Speaker 2

In other words, the fact that you're asserting ownership over aspects of the world that people previously didn't treat that way, or even think of in that way, and then using those newly Objectified or thingified things to produce profit. In this case, we're talking mainly about land and human beings.

Speaker 1

The right to enslave or colonize so you can steal their labor or buy it at a very low price. And land that had been shared and understood as a fundamental resource that provided a life and a way of life for everyone, however unequal and unjust those arrangements were.

Episode 1: What’s the Difference Between Socialism and Communism?

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Episode metadata

Show notes > Welcome current and future leftists! In our first episode, hosts Christine and Grady introduce the podcast and discuss the difference between socialism and communism. 
>
> And in our Organization Corner, we try to pin down a definition for that ever-nebulous term: organizing. What does it mean, and how do you do it?
>
>
> Check us out on social media!
>
> Instagram: @teachmecommunism
> Twitter: @teachcommunism
> Gmail: [email protected]  
>
> And like and subscribe to us at Teach Me Communism on YouTube!
  • Show notes link:: open website
  • Tags: #podcasts #snipd
  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Episode AI notes

  1. Socialism involves the government taking and redistributing cows, representing the influence of Marxism.
  2. Society goes through different phases, starting with a primitive phase where everyone is equal. Marx’s insight is that society’s structure is determined by its means of production.
  3. Feudalism emerged as a system where cities built their own walls and castles for protection. Vassals offered protection to serfs in exchange for labor and loyalty. The bourgeoisie refers to the capitalist class in Marx’s terminology.
  4. Talking about salaries is important to ensure fair pay, especially for marginalized individuals. Workers should take control and become their own bosses to address the issue of unfair pay, which aligns with socialism.
  5. In a utopian communist state, replicator technology would eliminate all problems, rendering a state administrator unnecessary. This aligns with Marx’s idea of communism, where people can pursue their hobbies and work only if they choose to.
  6. Communism is seen as a utopian state with no classes or work obligations, and the phrase ‘from each according to his ability to each according to his need’ is a well-known concept in communism.
  7. Socialism involves workers being in charge and everyone being cared for. It allows for consideration of individuals with disabilities and chronic illnesses who cannot work. Socialism is an application of democracy to all aspects of society.
  8. Addressing environmental concerns is crucial in the discussion of eco-communism. Critics who claim that Marx never considered human nature are mistaken, as Marx’s philosophy is grounded in self-interest and the desire to improve one’s own situation.
  9. The difference between socialism and communism can be significant and varied in terms of their different variations. Communist governments and communism as an idea are distinct from each other, and communism aims for the state to eventually fall away.
  10. Communism does not necessarily involve an all-encompassing state. The American conception of communism is different from its actual practice. Communist parties often operate within a totalitarian state, and Marxist Leninism emphasizes the importance of a vanguard party in achieving communism.
  11. Raising workers’ class consciousness is important, as it involves knowing one’s position in society and debunking the myth of equal opportunity in America.

Snips

[10:54] The Difference Between Socialism and Communism

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (09:44 - 10:54)

✨ Summary

In a lighthearted and engaging manner, the speaker discusses the comparison between socialism and communism. Using the analogy of cows, they explain that socialism involves the government taking everyone’s cows and distributing milk based on their perceived need. They acknowledge that this representation is not ideal but proceed to differentiate between socialism and communism, highlighting the influence of Marxism.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

That. I mean, it's pretty clear here. If you remember your cow political ideology that socialism is where you have two cows, the government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows, then gives you as much Milk as it thinks you need. I mean, okay. Even this cow poster looking back is very propaganda-ish. It is. Um, that one's not, you know, not the best representation of socialism. However, it does. I mean, well, let's, let's talk about it. All right. I mean, I'm not going to be between socialism and communism, right? And here what I want you to do is stop me anytime you're like, no, what the hell does that mean? Okay. I turn on, I brought up my video again because listeners don't know this, but you are a very animated speaker. So I had to see that hand motion. Yep. It really helps. I, yeah, that's, that's me. Um, all right. So I'm not going to get into too much of the meat of this, like in detail, because it would we would have a two hour long episode. But the difference between socialism and communism boils down to you got to get to Marxism. All right. So Karl Marx,

[13:12] The History of Marriage

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (12:02 - 13:12)

✨ Summary

In this text, the author discusses how society has evolved through different stages, starting from primitive societies where everyone was equal because they needed to work together for survival. They mention a book about the history of marriage that highlights the equality between men and women in Neolithic and Paleolithic societies. The author also mentions Marx’s insight that the structure of society is determined by its means of production.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Changing state, always developing through what he called the, the class struggle. Um, and so history went through different phases. Uh, and it kind of, you know, it's different for different societies, but you start with like the primitive phase where we're all just like hunter gatherers, you know, we're just hanging Out. No agriculture. Yeah. Uh, you know, it's dangerous, rough and tumble and everything, but basically people are, uh, equal. Yeah. No, I, I'm actually reading this book about the history of marriage. Uh, it's very good. It's called marriage of history. And they talk about how in like Neolithic societies and like paleolithic societies, I got this mixed up, um, that women and men were a lot more equal because it's like, we literally need Everybody to hunt down this mammoth. So like, ain't nobody can go sit down. Like, yes, that's, and that gets to the heart of it. You know, why were, why was it so equal? It's because they all had to work to produce enough food for everyone to survive. Yeah. It was so dire. There was no other option. Right. So the key insight of Marx is that the structure of society is based on its what we call means of production, the way that it's

[16:52] The Transition to Feudalism

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (15:42 - 16:52)

✨ Key takeaways

  1. Protection money was collected in the past to ensure protection from external threats.
  2. Feudalism emerged as a system where cities built their own walls and castles for protection.
  3. Vassals offered protection to serfs in exchange for labor and loyalty.
  4. Bourgeoisie refers to the capitalist class in Marx’s terminology.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Protection money, you know, taxes from various places to ensure that they would protect you from the, you know, barbarians or whatever. Yeah, because I was just jumping ahead. I'm like, well, why, why do we need people in charge? Like, why, why could you just use the extra surplus to like get your shit done? You don't, but they need, you know, they needed it at the time. The people in charge are saying that you need them. So, oh yeah. Okay. Feudalism. So yeah, you transition to feudalism, which is essentially like, you don't have the big guy at the top anymore. So all the cities are like building up their walls and their castles and protecting themselves. Which you still have the same dynamic, like the vassals and the serfs, you know, the vassals are like, hey, stick with me and I'll protect you, produce on the land that I have and I'll keep You alive and look out for you. Yeah. Yeah. I just re-watch down to Navi. So I get you. There you go. Yeah. Downstairs basically. I'm ready. And then eventually you have the bourgeois revolutions. Okay. So, bourgeoisie or bourgeois is like the adjective of it maybe. But the bourgeoisie is just his term, Marx's term for the, you know, the capitalists. Okay. I thought it was

[26:42] The Importance of Socialism

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (25:32 - 26:42)

✨ Summary

Talking about salaries is important to ensure fair pay, especially for marginalized individuals. Let’s take power from the bourgeoisie and create a socialist system where workers are in control.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Hey, I'm not getting paid enough for you getting paid enough kind of thing. Right. Which, Oh, also pro tip. I also do this. Talk about your salaries, people. I hate that there's a culture of not talking about your salaries. It is a way to get us to be paid less. It's intentional. Especially do this if you are a woman or, you know, non binary person or queer person, because like they will screw you over. Like, I, I make it a point to tell all my friends, like whenever they look for jobs, I'm like, what are they, what are they offering? Because I want to make sure that it's fair. Yeah. So talk about your fucking money, please. And as the workers are talking about their money and figuring out and coming to the large conclusion that, Hey, doesn't matter how much they pay us there. You know, why are they paying us that? Because they're making more, you know, we should. Why should they get to skim off of off of the top from us? We should make that. Let's take power. Let's take it from them. Let's let's be the bosses ourselves. And when they figure that out, when they, that cataclysm comes, the revolution comes and they destroy the power of the bourgeoisie and take power for themselves. That's socialism. Okay. It's socialism is where you have kind of, you know, our system, but instead the workers are in charge.

[32:22] The Utopian State of Communism

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (31:12 - 32:22)

✨ Summary

In a utopian state, replicator technology would eliminate all problems, rendering a state administrator unnecessary. This concept aligns with Marx’s idea of communism, where people can pursue their hobbies and work only if they choose to. It would be a classless society where individuals are free to fulfill their needs rather than being tied to specific careers.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

A replicator technology basically, or, you know, at least so much that you don't have to worry about that, the state would wither away. Okay. You wouldn't have the need to have a state administrator and anything. What are they doing? They're not solving any problems. There aren't any more problems. If this sounds strange, it is a utopia. Okay. Okay. Yeah. It is, it's, it's what Marx decided that, you know, kind of looking at things like, hey, this, I mean, this kind of seems like it would logically progress that way. I guess assuming all things kind of work out, but yeah, communism would be this utopian state, completely classless where people could work just if they want to work on something, you Know, basically you just be hanging out doing your hobbies or, you know, or whatever. All right. So like an artist utopia. Yeah. Like you don't have to commit to anyone career. You don't have to, you know, do any particular thing. You know, damn, I got to get up and go to work. Like just don't like whatever. This is crazy. The phrase changes to from each according to his ability to each according to his need. That's the more famous phrase

[35:40] The Importance of Socialism

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (34:30 - 35:40)

✨ Summary

Communists are further left on the political spectrum. Socialism means workers are in charge and people are cared for. But what about people with disabilities and chronic illnesses who can’t work? That would be up to the people. It’s all about applying democracy to everything.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

A revolution or let's have smaller forms. Let's do this slowly. Let's do this quickly. Oh, yeah. And then like, should there be a state in charge? Should it just be workers councils like all this stuff? So it's really widespread in terms of the differences there. But that's kind of the basic setup is communists would be, if you're looking at the basic political spectrum, communists would be further left. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I want to try to summarize. Yeah. Because I'm a good student and I want to get me. I always have to get me. So socialism would be workers are in charge and people are, people are cared for basically, right? Is everyone cared for? Everyone's. Well, yeah, everyone's cared for. Okay. Because a lot of this talk is like, you do work and you get compensated and stuff like that. I kind of start thinking about like, well, about people like with disabilities and chronic illness and like, people just can't work. Like, what do you, what do you do with that? So technically it would be up to the people. Okay. This is basically an application of democracy to everything and true

[40:14] The Importance of Eco-Communism

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (39:04 - 40:14)

✨ Summary

People who are against the idea may be labeled as skeptics, but it’s important to consider their point of view. While the idea may seem impossible at first, it’s worth exploring the potential for a food regulator. Addressing environmental concerns is crucial in this discussion. Critics who claim that Marx never considered human nature are mistaken. Marx was a philosopher who thoroughly considered human nature and his ideas are grounded in self-interest. The goal is to improve our own situation rather than fighting for others. That’s what makes it appealing.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

It's why are people against that? Are they stupid? Well, I know they, they are skeptics. Yeah. Okay. I mean, that's fair. I mean, yeah, my first thought is like that, that seems impossible, but I'm also like, I don't know. I feel like we could figure out a food repulator. I mean, I mean, if every, everyone stopped what they're doing and worked on that, maybe. I also, I think my first thought would also be, you know, environmentally, how would that work, which we could do a whole lot on like eco-communism? Very, yeah, that's, that would be very important. Adding it to the notes. I think that, you know, skeptics are, are point to say, you know, which a very foolish criticism of them is saying like, oh, you know, Marx never considered human nature. Marx was a fucking philosopher. He definitely considered human nature. Yeah. That was like his jazz. It's like where he came from on all this, you know, it's, it's come on. That's why it's grounded in self-interest. Like the whole, the whole mechanism here is not people saying, oh, I'm going to go fight for other people. It's, hey, we're getting screwed over. Let's make this better for ourselves, you know? Yeah, that's what I like about it. It's like, I mean, I,

[43:38] The Origins of Communism

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (42:28 - 43:38)

✨ Summary

In this episode, we discuss the differences between socialism and communism, highlighting their various variations. We also explore the misconception that a communist government means constant state involvement, when in reality, communism aims for the state to eventually fall away. Join us for more insightful episodes in the future!

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That kind of makes sense. I wish to do. Gosh, this whole episode is just like, we should do an episode about this. Hey, man, we're going to have, we're going to have several of those probably coming forward because we're in that stage. This episode is an ad for other episodes. Yeah. Come back. A promo trailer. Yeah. I guess that's the big difference there in socialism and communism. I guess we kind of covered it. And the difference in socialists and communists can be a lot just in terms of their different variations. Yeah. I think that helps though. What really helped me was that distinction between like communist governments and communism, the idea because, you know, I'm not, I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but I think it was A good connection to make that like, hey, like, no one actually has a question. Has a communist government because we don't have food replicators and like endless resources. Yeah. And it's an oxymoron itself. The state is supposed to fall away. There's not supposed to be a meeting. Yeah, that was very surprising to me. I thought communism was like all state all the time. No, see, that's the American conception of it. When the government does more things, that's more communism,

[44:31] The Origins of Communism

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (43:21 - 44:31)

✨ Summary

Communism is often misunderstood by Americans. While the American conception of communism is that the government does more things, true communism is actually the absence of a state. The confusion arises because communist parties in control often implement state intervention as a means to reach a communist society. This approach is influenced by theories such as Marxist Leninism, which believes in the need for a vanguard party to guide the transition to communism.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Because we don't have food replicators and like endless resources. Yeah. And it's an oxymoron itself. The state is supposed to fall away. There's not supposed to be a meeting. Yeah, that was very surprising to me. I thought communism was like all state all the time. No, see, that's the American conception of it. When the government does more things, that's more communism, you know, but that's not. That's so weird. Why? Yeah. Wait, why? I think, you know, part of it might be honest confusion in terms of the communist parties, right? They are in control in a kind of totalitarian state. Okay. So their method to getting to communism was like, yeah, let's do a ton of state shit. Yeah. And where it's been practiced has generally been either a Marxist Leninist or a Maoist way to do it. We don't have to get into what that is basically, but Marx's Leninism is kind of important in that it's theory was the theory of a vanguard party. Lenin basically said, there's no way all these people in Russia are going to figure out communism and time, figure out, you know, how to combine together in their class interests without Somebody provoking

[52:31] The Importance of Class Consciousness

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (51:21 - 52:31)

✨ Summary

A regular guy talks about not caring about what CEOs do during quarantine. He emphasizes the importance of raising workers’ class consciousness and defines it as knowing one’s position in society, debunking the myth of equal opportunity in America.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

And I'm just a regular guy talking to my employees. And it's just, and like, there's so many things like people are asking like, what, what are you doing during quarantine? And like asking these questions to like CEOs and stuff and it's just like, I don't care. Like they're, I'm not friends with this person. Yeah, it's PR. That's, that's, that's old down home. Me, you know, you can, yeah. All shucks, you know, all shucks. I don't know all of you. But yeah, when we're talking about organizing, just to kind of get us. Oh, yeah. And we're talking about organizing. We're talking about anything that you can do to raise class consciousness, broadly speaking. So just bringing workers, like we said, anybody who's responding to bosses and stuff, bringing them into greater awareness of their position of their, you know, situation, okay, Applying it to them. I was going to ask if we could have a more specific definition of class consciousness. Cause that's another term. Sure. It gets thrown around a lot. Class consciousness is just knowing where you are in this situation, knowing that, uh, cause America is great about this, right? We are, you know, we don't have classes in America. You know, everyone has a chance boots, straps, all that, right? You can make anything of

Socialism v. Capitalism: The Empirical Data w/Howard Waitzkin

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Episode metadata

Show notes > Premier episode! Dr. Howard Waitzkin joins the show to discuss  his landmark 1986 study which compares physical quality of life (life span, literacy rates, education accessibility, infant mortality rate etc.) between capitalist and socialist nations at the same level of development.
> The study demonstrates conclusively the material benefits of a socialist political economy. Some of the stuff we cover in this discussion includes origins of the study, it's startling conclusions, how it was received after publication (including criticisms), what this study would like replicated in 2022, and even how socialist countries have tackled COVID-19!
> Links to the study itself and more information regarding this episode are freely accessible on the Patreon page:  https://www.patreon.com/posts/69057149/
>  
> Episode Credits
> Intro/Outro:
> (Internationale Trap Remix - Matt Cousins)
> Opening Interlude Voice Over:
> (Micheal Parenti - Reflections on the Overthrow of Communism)
> Opening Interlude Music:
> V.I.P.N - Epic Cloud Trap Beat
  • Show notes link:: open website
  • Tags: #podcasts #snipd
  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Snips

[10:23] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (09:13 - 10:23)

📚 Transcript

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Howard Waitzkin

Classification of type of economy and includes the dependent variables that we consider in addition to that, which are health outcomes, educational outcomes, and a number of other Outcomes grouped under the Physical Quality of Life Index, which is an index that actually the World Bank and collaborators developed. So, we were simply taking data and decisions about how to classify countries from the World Bank. They didn't call it socialist or capitalist. They called it market versus non-market or a similar set of terms. But these corresponded directly to capitalist versus socialist countries, with the exceptions of the recently post-revolutionary countries, most of which were socialists, but Hadn't been in existence long enough to see any impacts of the changes in social policy. So we considered that as a separate category. And then there was another group of countries that were countries that basically produced petroleum and so were very wealthy countries, but not in the sense of sharing the wealth

[15:33] Untitled

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📚 Transcript

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Tony

Given this data, what were the conclusions of the study, and what do they tell us about the multitude of actually existing socialism nations as they were in the 1980s, and also just socialism In general?

Howard Waitzkin

I think you've touched on the main conclusions and the way you summarized it, which was an excellent summary. I could add that for me, I was quite shocked by these results, even though I was very supportive of what was happening in multiple of the socialist countries for various reasons. I actually didn't expect that it would be so clearly shown when the comparisons were made in this way. We didn't do a multi-method study. So we didn't, for instance, have qualitative information about the policies that existed in each country to accomplish this. But in our study of those countries, not that we published, but our personal study, it was clear that essentially all of the socialist countries had very clear, well-worked out policies, Delivering health services, training health professionals, maternal and infant care programs to address

[16:36] Untitled

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📚 Transcript

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Howard Waitzkin

Out policies, delivering health services, training health professionals, maternal and infant care programs to address infant mortality and child mortality, nutritional programs That also help with those things, very extensive changes in the educational systems to address illiteracy and other problems related to undereducation. So that's what we presume was the mechanism by which these dramatic differences occurred.

Tony

It sounds like you were surprised by the data that was collected in the findings, but was there a specific piece of information that you came across that was specifically surprising To you?

Howard Waitzkin

The information about nutrition was probably, I would say, the most surprising because multiple of the countries were actually dealing with major challenges in terms of food accessibility, In terms of weather, they were going through some famine conditions from time to time, and also lacked infrastructure for farming that was in any way comparable to the higher income Countries.

[23:08] Untitled

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📚 Transcript

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Howard Waitzkin

Has been accomplished. But there was actually no way feasibly to do that at the time. So anyway, I have to disappoint you, and then I have very little to say about criticisms, which was very, very surprising to us at the time.

Tony

Would you say that you've heard of any common misconceptions about interpreting the findings? Do people sometimes overstate the findings or maybe understate the findings? Have you come across that at all in discussions about the paper?

Howard Waitzkin

Occasionally, I've had feedback from comrades, let's say, on the left, it doesn't address the problems of some of the socialist countries in terms of becoming state socialist or state Capitalist countries. So this is a common criticism of the Soviet Union, for instance, how it actually, by preserving the capital system, it actually became in many of the same ways that happened in capitalist Countries. The emphasis on productivity, for instance, led to major environmental problems, occupational health problems,

[24:00] Untitled

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📚 Transcript

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Howard Waitzkin

Actually, by preserving the capital system, it actually became in many of the same ways that happened in capitalist countries. The emphasis on productivity, for instance, led to major environmental problems, occupational health problems, and so forth. So we didn't get into that in the article, and it's been pointed out that we should have been more critical of some of the socialist countries than we were. Again, I hesitated at that time to go there. Oh, and let me say also, and then there was a whole issue of Stalinism. Here's a presentation of the good outcomes in the Soviet Union, but not addressing the problems of Stalinism. That was another critique. I was hesitant to go there, and I still am, because of the constant attack that was underway about all those countries from the beginning of their trajectories as socialist countries. So you had massive destabilization efforts affecting the Soviet Union and the countries in Eastern Europe and the so-called Soviet bloc,

[24:57] Untitled

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📚 Transcript

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Howard Waitzkin

Of their trajectories as socialist countries. So you had massive destabilization efforts affecting the Soviet Union and the countries in Eastern Europe and the so-called Soviet bloc, and orchestrated military and economic And other destabilization efforts choreographed by the CIA and other intelligence agencies from Britain and elsewhere in Europe in the lower and low middle income countries. What happened, let's say, in Stalinism or in state socialism, there also is a context that that needs to be considered. And what happened afterward, of course, was that some of the advances that we reported on deteriorated. A good example was Vietnam, for instance, where it was said, and still is said, that Vietnam won the military war and then lost the war to the World Bank, because, you know, essentially All the socialist countries were confronted with the same problem that Lenin described, which is the problem of socialism

[25:54] Untitled

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📚 Transcript

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Howard Waitzkin

The military war and then lost the war to the World Bank, because, you know, essentially all the socialist countries were confronted with the same problem that Lenin described, which Is the problem of socialism in one country or the problem of trying to advance economically and in terms of human services and education and all the rest, when there wasn't a large enough Group of countries to actually collaborate and exchange trade and exchange technical resources and so forth. The ability to maintain a strictly socialist system changed a great deal during the late 70s, the 80s, and 90s because of a number of those factors.

Tony

I think that analysis you just provided is incredibly important to understand because the history of socialist countries, particularly in the West, is presented in such a way that All conflicts that occur within socialist countries or any negative impact on the citizens of those countries is the sole result of socialism itself. And meanwhile, the inverse or the

[29:43] Untitled

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📚 Transcript

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Tony

And socialist nations, but I've never seen another study like the one you've done. Why do you think that is? Right.

Howard Waitzkin

So there are various political economic variables that continue to be studied. For instance, the role of government in organizing national programs of health services. And there was actually a systematic review of those that came out in the American Journal of Public Health a couple of years ago, you know, that basically showed that countries that Have strong political and economic policies favoring the delivery of services, as far as possible, in a unified health system that isn't organized according to different types of Services for different people. Those countries actually had much better outcomes. But the reason that you haven't seen any studies like it, and the reason that I haven't tried to replicate it, unfortunately, very unfortunately, Shirley passed away shortly after The article was published. I've tried to figure out how to do it again. What happened is that the World Bank, shortly after the study was published, changed the way that they presented these data.

[30:37] Untitled

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📚 Transcript

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Howard Waitzkin

Very unfortunately, Shirley passed away shortly after the article was published. I've tried to figure out how to do it again. What happened is that the World Bank, shortly after the study was published, changed the way that they presented these data. So, for instance, the classification according to market versus non-market kind of changed. And the whole thing became much more oriented to development level than political economic system. And so it's really hard to get data as systematically and extensively available now from the World Bank or any other source than it was at that time. And the other reason was because, you know, some of the socialist countries have arrived at forms of political economic organization that can't be neatly classified in the same way. Let's take China, for instance, or Vietnam, for that matter. So these are countries that have substantial parts of the economy that are in the private sector and run by markets.

[31:42] Untitled

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📚 Transcript

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Howard Waitzkin

Of the economy that are in the private sector and run by markets. And they're essentially capitalist sectors of the economy, plus huge public state sectors. They're actually bigger than the private sectors. And the leadership of those countries try to use the income generated and the wealth generated by the capitalist sectors of the economy to basically redistribute wealth. And for example, in China, under this policy, there's been the most massive change in the distribution of wealth in the history of the world, essentially the elimination of extreme Poverty from China in a period of 20 years. And I'm not expressing my enthusiastic support for that approach at all. Countries with a combination of a capitalist sector within an officially socialist regime. Now, the interesting thing historically about that is that this was actually part of Lenin's plan. So Lenin is often misconstrued as saying that, you know, through the dictatorship

[33:13] Untitled

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📚 Transcript

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Howard Waitzkin

Markets in particular, community-based markets, and an effort to decentralize the command structure of the economy. So this was a Leninist idea. And actually, its history to me has been very interesting. I'm not an expert on it. I did discover at one time that Che Guevara's economic writings, which have yet to be published in English, they're basically called the economic manuscripts. And they consist of a very strong critique of Stalinism in terms of economic policy. And it focuses on exactly this situation of over-centralization, too much command structure within the national economy, lack of adequate decentralization, and a lack of freedom Of people at the lower level to carry on their own market-based activities, which is not to say they're capitalist activities, just because they're market-based. In other words, they don't involve the extraction of surplus value from workers. In other words, capitalists sit around, and no matter how nice they are, they

[43:06] Untitled

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📚 Transcript

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Howard Waitzkin

But it's been accomplished and verified in North Korea. Now, what I'm saying to you was absolutely astonishing to me. I was not expecting to find any of this. And so, you know, what happens when you actually take the time and energy to look into it, you know, it's pretty amazing what you can find in terms of who has better outcomes. Now, I'm trying to, with a couple of colleagues, trying to do something similar in terms of how the pandemic has been handled and what the outcomes there have been. So we have a number of the so-called ex-socialist countries that are actually officially socialist countries with capitalist sectors of the economy like China, Vietnam, and so forth. And you have regions like Kerala state in India, which is basically a left-wing socialist run state. And then you have Cuba, and then you have Venezuela and Nicaragua, and so forth. And when you look at what actually has happened in those countries, all

[45:45] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (44:35 - 45:45)

📚 Transcript

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Howard Waitzkin

Much gave up on its epidemiological accomplishments during the Omicron phase. So it's actually the worst phase of the whole pandemic that's going on now here. And the most deaths in a day for the whole pandemic happened two days ago here. But in general, the numbers of deaths and cases are a fraction of what they've been in the vast majority of other capitalist countries. And the reason that's happened is also by community-based mobilization in South Korea. It's done because there's a well-organized public health structure in every county. And the whole pandemic has been managed at the county level here. Testing, diagnosis, interventions, home visits. So it's not just the central government in the officially socialist countries now, or the central government in capitalist countries like Korea, that are actually accomplishing The much better processes and outcomes in those countries. It actually has to do with community-based mobilization, which is part of

What Has Socialism Ever Done For Women? w/ Julia Mead

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Episode metadata

Show notes > Julia Mead joins the show to discuss the article she co-authored with Kristen Ghodsee entitled "What Has Socialism Ever Done For Women?"   From abortion rights to women's unions the Soviet Union was a leader in the fight for women's equality. In this enlightening episode Julia expertly explains the ideas of 19th century socialist feminism, the realization of these ideas in the struggle for women's rights in the Soviet Union and other Eastern Bloc countries, and finally the lasting impacts of those achievements!  The article and more information regarding what we discussed and Julia's work can be found on the patreon posting of this episode: https://www.patreon.com/posts/69210703
> Episode Credits
> Intro/Outro:
> (Internationale Trap Remix by Matt Cousins)
> Opening Interlude Voiceover:
> ( AK-47 Podcast by Kristen Ghodsee (Episode 7)
> Opening Interlude Music: 
> ( R&B Beat x Smooth Rnb Instrumental 2021 - "Lola")
  • Show notes link:: open website
  • Tags: #podcasts #snipd
  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Episode AI notes

  1. The ideas of early socialist feminist thinkers in the late 19th century influenced future Eastern European states in the 20th century, particularly in terms of women’s rights.
  2. Early socialists emphasized the connection between monogamous marriage and the preservation of private property, as well as the importance of class solidarity over gender divisions.
  3. Early socialist theorists believed in the state’s responsibility to support women as mothers.
  4. Working-class men and women in socialist societies believed in class emancipation rather than seeking suffrage or legal rights with bourgeois women.
  5. Legal changes in Soviet Russia dismantled the nuclear family and aimed to prevent women from being trapped in difficult or abusive marriages.
  6. Understanding the concept of the destruction of the nuclear family is crucial to avoid misinterpretation.
  7. Women’s activism and organization under states’ socialism looked different from capitalist countries, but women still found ways to advocate for their interests.
  8. Learning from women organizing under socialism in Eastern Europe highlights the importance of having people both inside and outside the state pushing for change and challenges the narrow definition of freedom under capitalism.
  9. Contemporary social organizing theory emphasizes the effectiveness of having people both inside and outside the state pushing for change.
  10. The concept of socializing domestic work through programs like cafeterias and childcare cooperatives in socialist societies is intriguing and worth exploring further.

Snips

[07:38] The Influence of Early Socialists on 20th Century Eastern European States

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (06:17 - 07:38)

✨ Summary

The rapid political changes in 20th century Czechoslovakia provide an exciting opportunity to study the impact of political economies on women. The emergence of socialist texts addressing women’s issues in the late 19th century influenced future Eastern European social states. These ideas differed from Joao style feminism. Three key ideas from the early theorists were later adopted by state socialist women’s unions and states.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Yeah, well, there are a lot of different ways you could get into this field. And I specifically studied the history of state socialist, Czechoslovakia, and it had some of the most profound political changes of anywhere as rapidly as possible. So there were four distinct political regimes in Czechoslovakia in the 20th century. So for historians, that rapidity of change is really exciting. But it did mean I had to learn Czech, which was hard.

Speaker 2

That's an interesting point about that the rapid changes, making it the perfect lab, so to speak, in regards to looking at how different political economies have impacted women. Absolutely. The late 19th century saw a variety of socialist texts addressing the so-called women's question. August Bebels, women in socialism, Frederick Engels, the origin of the family, private property in the state, and Lily Bronze, the women question. What theoretical and practical ideas did these texts provide to future 20th century Eastern European social states that emerged in the 20th century? And how did these ideas differ from the parallel, emergent, or Joao style of feminism?

Speaker 1

This is a great question because a lot of people who study the earliest socialists in this don't really, aren't really in conversation with the people who study 20th centuries. There are three main ideas that these early theorists outlined that later state socialist women's unions and states adopted. The first was the idea that the institution of

[08:50] Insights from Early Socialists on Marriage, Gender Solidarity, and State Support for Mothers

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (07:17 - 08:54)

✨ Summary

Early socialist theorists outlined three main ideas that later influenced state socialist women’s unions and states. They believed monogamous marriage served to preserve private property, class solidarity was more important than gender solidarity, and the state should support women.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

This is a great question because a lot of people who study the earliest socialists in this don't really, aren't really in conversation with the people who study 20th centuries. There are three main ideas that these early theorists outlined that later state socialist women's unions and states adopted. The first was the idea that the institution of monogamous marriage existed to preserve private property, bronze and angles and all of these people saw that really the social function Of marriage was to make it clear who men's errors were so that they could pass on inheritance. It really has nothing to do with affection or compatibility or all of these romantic things that we would like to think marriage is based on, but really just in order to ensure inheritance. So it's a constriction of women's sexuality in the surface of capital reproduction, so I think it's a very useful insight. And the second big idea that transmitted from these early social feminist thinkers, the later ones, was that basically they argued for class solidarity, uber gender solidarity. So they thought that working-class men and women had much more in common and much more to gain from working together for class emancipation than working-class women had to gain from Working with bourgeois women for something like suffrage or more legal rights. They basically thought that bourgeois women would sell working-class women out if they hit their horse to that carriage. And then the third really big idea was that the state needed to support women as mothers.

[08:19] Early socialists and the impact on later socialist women’s unions and states

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (07:17 - 08:24)

✨ Summary

Early social feminist thinkers highlighted the connection between monogamous marriage and the preservation of private property. They emphasized the importance of class solidarity over gender divisions.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

This is a great question because a lot of people who study the earliest socialists in this don't really, aren't really in conversation with the people who study 20th centuries. There are three main ideas that these early theorists outlined that later state socialist women's unions and states adopted. The first was the idea that the institution of monogamous marriage existed to preserve private property, bronze and angles and all of these people saw that really the social function Of marriage was to make it clear who men's errors were so that they could pass on inheritance. It really has nothing to do with affection or compatibility or all of these romantic things that we would like to think marriage is based on, but really just in order to ensure inheritance. So it's a constriction of women's sexuality in the surface of capital reproduction, so I think it's a very useful insight. And the second big idea that transmitted from these early social feminist thinkers, the later ones, was that basically they argued for class solidarity, uber gender solidarity.

[09:33] Key Ideas of 19th Century Socialist Feminism and its Differences from Bourgeois-style Feminism

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✨ Summary

Working-class men and women believed in class emancipation rather than joining bourgeois women for suffrage or legal rights. They believed bourgeois women would betray them. Socialist states supported women as mothers through initiatives like daycare and canteens, unlike bourgeois-style feminism. Socialist feminism differed significantly from other forms of feminism at the time.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

So they thought that working-class men and women had much more in common and much more to gain from working together for class emancipation than working-class women had to gain from Working with bourgeois women for something like suffrage or more legal rights. They basically thought that bourgeois women would sell working-class women out if they hit their horse to that carriage. And then the third really big idea was that the state needed to support women as mothers. And this is, I think, the one that the later socialist states were most successful in implementing. They thought that simply childbearing was too big a job for a kind of contained nuclear family and really just one mother to do alone. So things like daycare, canteen, were first conceived of by the 19th century socialist coming up.

Speaker 2

How did that differ at the time from bourgeois-style feminism? So you've outlined kind of three of the aspects of socialist feminism. What was, I guess, even the dominant, actually, I'm not sure if it was a dominant form of feminism at the time.

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (12:29 - 13:36)

✨ Summary

In the past, children born in wedlock had more rights than those born outside of marriage. Adoption was also prohibited. The state believed it could raise children better than families. Divorce was made easier, allowing unhappy partners to leave. However, this often resulted in men abandoning women after getting them pregnant or marrying them. Alexandra Kwon Thai, a women’s rights leader, aimed to dismantle the nuclear family.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

So before a child born in wedlock had more legal rights than a child born outside of wedlock. It also outlawed adoption, which was kind of interesting. The idea was that the state could do childbearing better than the nuclear family. It also liberalized the divorce. So that is a really big thing. It in theory meant that either partner could leave an unhappy marriage and that women wouldn't be stuck in a difficult or abusive situation. Unfortunately in practice, it often meant that a man would get a woman pregnant and then effectively abandoned her or even marry a woman and abandoned her. So these were really big changes. And the ultimate goal is expressed by Alexandra Kwon Thai, who is a real leader for women's rights union. She was a Bolshevik and she was the first commissaire of the Commission for State Welfare and the leader of Vision of Tidal, which was the Soviet women's union. So goal with all of these changes was the disintegration of the nuclear family.

[15:23] Understanding the Concept of the Destruction of the Nuclear Family

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✨ Summary

The destruction of the nuclear family is often criticized by right-wing individuals. Understanding the concept behind it is important to see it from a different perspective. Similarly, critical race theory can also sound scary to some people. Early socialists believed that the nuclear family hindered love and care for others.

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Speaker 2

So you mentioned the destruction of the nuclear family, which is one of the number one right-wing things to latch on to. And if they read, say, for example, the communist manifest, there were any socialist document from the 20th century in particular, can you explain a little more in depth as to what they Meant by that? Because it does sound scary from, I guess, from a certain perspective without understanding the concept behind it. Like the critical race theory sounds scary in a similar way to certain people. If you could explain that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, the phrase, the destruction of the nuclear family does have kind of a bogeyman ring to it. I think what's important to understand is that these early socialists saw the institution of the nuclear family as something that really stood in the way of people feeling love and Affection and care for each other.

[31:52] How women agitate and organize under states’ socialism

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✨ Summary

Women’s activism and organization under states’ socialism differed from capitalist countries, where feminist movements are often seen as large social movements. In states’ socialism, official clubs separate from the state were not allowed, but women still found ways to advocate for their interests.

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Speaker 2

So I guess as a segue into our next question, what ways do women agitate and organize for the interests under states' socialism?

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's a good segue because it looks very different than capitalist countries. We have a real image of feminist movements as social movements in the West, in the United States, in Canada, and Western Europe, that feminism looks like a big group of people, mostly Women, walking with banners and stuff like this, and in art movements and consciousness-raising circles. But under states' socialism, that didn't exist. There was an explicit outline of civil societies that you couldn't have clubs, didn't have official clubs, or recognized clubs that were separate from the states. But that doesn't mean that women had no way of advocating to dissolve.

[34:45] Learning about contemporary social organizing and the effectiveness of women organizing under socialism in Eastern Europe

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✨ Summary

Contemporary social organizing, like inside outside organizing theory, emphasizes the effectiveness of having people both inside and outside of the state pushing for change. Learning about women organizing within the state under socialism in Eastern Europe has convinced me that this is an important factor in good politics. It’s enlightening and challenges the usual perception of the Soviet Union as top-down. It makes me realize the nuanced definition of freedom that many of us who have only lived under capitalism may have.

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Speaker 2

Learning about this history, that makes me appreciate the kind of contemporary social organizing, like inside outside organizing theory, like Alex, I'll exempt you at a call, Alexandra

Speaker 1

Ocasio-Cortez talks about this a lot, the kind of effectiveness of having people comrades in the state and also outside of the state, both pushing from what's in and without, and learning About the effectiveness of women organizing within the state under socialism in Eastern Europe has really convinced me that that is an important factor in good politics.

Speaker 2

It's very enlightening, but also, maybe ironic isn't the term for it, but with how the Soviet Union is normally presented, again, as like kind of a top down, and you just have to follow It, there's no freedom under socialism or communism, but given these examples, there's a freedom that, of course, operates differently then. Yeah, it's always such a, you know, nuanced.

Speaker 1

It is nuanced, and it makes me think about what a narrow definition of freedom so many of us who have only lived under capitalism have.

[35:09] Appreciating Contemporary Social Organizing Theory and Learning from Women Organizing Under Socialism

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (33:42 - 35:14)

✨ Summary

Contemporary social organizing theory highlights the effectiveness of having people both inside and outside the state pushing for change. Learning from women organizing under socialism in Eastern Europe reinforces the importance of this approach. It challenges the narrow definition of freedom under capitalism and explores the freedom experienced in socialist societies. The concept of socializing domestic work through programs like cafeterias and childcare cooperatives is intriguing, and I wonder how these programs are implemented in practice.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 2

Learning about this history, that makes me appreciate the kind of contemporary social organizing, like inside outside organizing theory, like Alex, I'll exempt you at a call, Alexandra

Speaker 1

Ocasio-Cortez talks about this a lot, the kind of effectiveness of having people comrades in the state and also outside of the state, both pushing from what's in and without, and learning About the effectiveness of women organizing within the state under socialism in Eastern Europe has really convinced me that that is an important factor in good politics.

Speaker 2

It's very enlightening, but also, maybe ironic isn't the term for it, but with how the Soviet Union is normally presented, again, as like kind of a top down, and you just have to follow It, there's no freedom under socialism or communism, but given these examples, there's a freedom that, of course, operates differently then. Yeah, it's always such a, you know, nuanced.

Speaker 1

It is nuanced, and it makes me think about what a narrow definition of freedom so many of us who have only lived under capitalism have. I'm sure you think about this all the time, but you have the freedom to write what you want, say what you want, and theory go where you want, but you don't have this freedom not to start on The street, but people that have been in socialism almost has to be legal on housing guaranteed.

Speaker 2

I found the concept of the socialization of domestic work, you know, fascinating through cafeterias, laundries, childcare, closed-mending cooperatives. How are these programs in practice?

Monty Python and the Holy Grail (w/ Zachary Marlow)

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Episode metadata

Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by radical filmmaker and organizer with Moneyless Society , Zachary Marlow , for a silly-voiced conversation about the 1975 comedy Monty Python and the Holy Grail . They discuss how the Pythons used comedy to speak truth to power within British society, the transformation of feudalism into capitalism into what some are now calling “neo-feudalism,” and why Dennis the peasant has better politics than God. 
>
> Moneyless Society
> Zachary’s Ko-Fi page
>
> For next week’s movie, we’ll be watching Frank’s spooky season favorite, The Cabin in the Woods .
>
> 🤝 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PATREON 🤝
>
> www.patreon.com/movies_vs_capitalism
>
> MVC donates its ad space to progressive or leftist causes and organizations. If you’re interested in promoting your work, email us at [email protected].
>
> Artwork by Rufus Paisley | Theme song by JustBen
  • Show notes link:: open website
  • Tags: #podcasts #snipd
  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Snips

[03:52] Untitled

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Rivka

Hanks can do no wrong period like tom hanks wow now i understand why you got banned that's and i know i like so offensive and probably like believe me i wouldn't i would never write that But i understand what i was coming from why i thought to write that sentence i gave myself so much ick i guess you just got banned for i don't know being lame no that was a different account That was i don't even know i don't know that was because the last one of those was like that was like solid 2013 all right well enough about uh our tweets from 2013 what did you want to talk

Frank

About you had something you actually a listener uh oh yeah actually a listener had written in that you wanted to respond to will will wrote in oh no rivka fell for the capitalist propaganda

Rivka

Anarchy is not wanton destruction nor is it nihilism anarchy comes from the greek against hierarchy. Anarchy is mutual aid, poor people helping poor people. It is community defense. It is skill

[30:33] Untitled

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Zachary Marlow

And and really have a ruthless anarchist critique of power that power itself is absurd you know i even think like the people the leftists calling themselves like oh we're the we're going To be the vanguard we're going to take over and we're going to run things. I think they're absurd. I think they're the same people going around clacking their coconuts saying, we are going to lead you without understanding the true nature of power. And so this film mercilessly critiques all authority in all ways from God being an insecure little ingrate to the king being just continually not taken seriously. And this film does really that. I'm going to get back, keep going back to the scene because it's the best scene in movie history, I think, of the anarchist peasants, where there is at least one scene. I think every movie that attempts to be like political should have one scene where they actually describe like in bold face font, the politics of the film. And in this film, they're talking about anarcho-syndicalism. There's multiple jokes about anarcho-syndicalism, which is a confusing word to a lot of people, but really I think is one of the most important verbiages of our time, that it's this System of free associations of basically unions that come

[31:13] Untitled

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Zachary Marlow

Anarchist peasants, where there is at least one scene. I think every movie that attempts to be like political should have one scene where they actually describe like in bold face font, the politics of the film. And in this film, they're talking about anarcho-syndicalism. There's multiple jokes about anarcho-syndicalism, which is a confusing word to a lot of people, but really I think is one of the most important verbiages of our time, that it's this System of free associations of basically unions that come together and manage things in federations collectively together a central body controlling them. And this was Noam Chomsky's philosophy. This is what he's sort of pointed to as defined by Rudolf Rocker in, I think, the early 1900s. And this is a continually relevant political theory that we can maybe get into a little later. We can maybe get into some more riffs and jokes. But yeah, I wrote a ton of notes for this film because the Middle Ages itself is so important for understanding our current era because it's the birthplace of capitalism. It's the manure that capitalism sprouted out of like a nasty weed, that the enclosure of the commons really is the beginning of capitalism as we know it. Like there was

[32:14] Untitled

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Zachary Marlow

It's the manure that capitalism sprouted out of like a nasty weed, that the enclosure of the commons really is the beginning of capitalism as we know it. Like there was money before that, there were markets, there were authoritarian power structures, but there wasn't this system of private ownership of the means of production until The commons were enclosed to force people into industrial factories. And this was right around the time of, of the colonial expeditions, bringing back hordes of silver, bringing the money economy into existence. And there's, great scene in this film where they're burning a witch. Hilarious fucking scene. The peasants are just so stupid. They're really like Twitter commenters. They're like the bootlickers who come on our videos and are like, well, without money, there'd be no incentive. Without somebody telling people what to do, things like... They're not thinking at all. And they're just in this mob mentality. And it's a hilarious scene, but it actually shows something that's really incredibly fascinating that I was listening to today. And this book, Caliban and the Witch by Silvia Federici outlines this. And it's all about primitive accumulation, this early age of capitalism, and that the witches were not like,

[32:43] Untitled

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Zachary Marlow

Bringing the money economy into existence. And there's, great scene in this film where they're burning a witch. Hilarious fucking scene. The peasants are just so stupid. They're really like Twitter commenters. They're like the bootlickers who come on our videos and are like, well, without money, there'd be no incentive. Without somebody telling people what to do, things like... They're not thinking at all. And they're just in this mob mentality. And it's a hilarious scene, but it actually shows something that's really incredibly fascinating that I was listening to today. And this book, Caliban and the Witch by Silvia Federici outlines this. And it's all about primitive accumulation, this early age of capitalism, and that the witches were not like, it wasn't a superstitious thing. Like even rationalists like Thomas Hobbes were pro witch hunt, which was like, somebody described it as like the first European unifying incident of like, all across Europe, they Were hunting down witches and killing them, because they were strong women in leadership positions or positions of authority and wisdom, real authority. And they knew they had a knowledge of bodily autonomy. They understood how to give abortions. And,

[37:36] Untitled

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Frank

To we've got to start doing capitalism. But Zachary, I think you probably it sounds like you have an even more in-depth knowledge.

Zachary Marlow

Well, I want to talk about I want to talk about the commons because the commons weren't just like the woods that people could go and live in and eat out of and hunt from. They were a means of sustaining themselves. And this was the foundation for a very powerful retaliation against power getting unchecked. Because, you know, you can always say, fuck you, Lord, I'm going to go off in the commons. I'm going to hunt and fish and swim and live in indigenous ways and live connected to land and live for subsistence and not for your profit or rents. But the commons is profoundly important right now. And it's having really a resurgence as capitalism is rediscovering this little thing called feudalism. We are rediscovering this thing called the commons and these practices of commoning, that a commons is not just a water supply or a forest or some land or space that is managed communally. And for those who don't know, Eleanor Ostrom was a great thinker and theorist. She won the Nobel Prize for basically debunking the tragedy of the commons, which is this pro-capitalist hokum that says

[38:17] Untitled

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Zachary Marlow

Having really a resurgence as capitalism is rediscovering this little thing called feudalism. We are rediscovering this thing called the commons and these practices of commoning, that a commons is not just a water supply or a forest or some land or space that is managed communally. And for those who don't know, Eleanor Ostrom was a great thinker and theorist. She won the Nobel Prize for basically debunking the tragedy of the commons, which is this pro-capitalist hokum that says that if the common lands are open, then people will trash them. Whereas, oh, there's great incentive for me to turn it into a parking lot and then I'll protect it forever because it's my property, which is bullshit. Because you can dump sewage onto a piece of land that's yours and make some money or save money doing that. You can turn it into a parking lot and extinct every bit of life on it and extract more money than you can making it into a, you know, a flourishing forest. But commoning is a prize is a extensive practice. I mean, it's, it's the foundation of human existence as a social being, as beings that don't think in terms of ownership and privation and separation that, you know, festivals are commons Practices, you know, eating and gathering are commons

[42:18] Untitled

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Zachary Marlow

Voice and talk like, just re-expose the stupidity of the whole situation. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous.

Frank

It's utterly ridiculous what we're living in or the idea that like the five most powerful and yet probably stupidest men in the country were given an order from god to go find some cup That's going to what unify the entire country yeah it's like that's the level of absurdity we're living in that's like donald trump saying i'm the only one who can fix it that's like billionaire Worship billionaire supremacy anyone who thinks that like elon musk is going to like somehow come up with the solution that fixes i don't know what free speech like the way that we converse With one another the way that we communicate you're right we are sadly in a new dark ages of time although we all have iphones so like really should we actually just shut the up and stop Complaining about everything?

Zachary Marlow

Well, the Scrying Stone is a magical implement that is making us all insane by the decrees of our lords. I wrote here in my notes that God, as a projection of our insecurity through history, God is what we can't reconcile with ourselves, and we have to create a mythology around it. Capitalism takes for granted that humans are basically like nasty

[46:26] Untitled

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Zachary Marlow

Exhort you to consider that now the time has come appointed to us by god in which ye may if ye will cast off the yoke of bondage and recover liberty it was john ball who was uh the diggers and The level levelers and these other groups of peasants a lot of them were like sort of a liberation theology kind of christian peasants and baptists that were sort of like basically like A change of the mode of production and the mode of of communication in the printing press around around this period to spread uh the ability for people to read the bible and be like hey Wait a minute uh it is easier for a rich man to go through for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven like that doesn't really square With this whole feudalistic arrangement. And so there were a lot of movements of people, of peasants, rising up and reclaiming their power. And the foundation of that power is the commons. And I want to remind people again and again and again that us coming together and pooling our resources in a common pool of resources, and not in a chaotic way. I mean, I would say in an anarchic way, but not in a way that most people think of as anarchic. They think that means chaotic. But again, Ostrom laid out principles for governing the commons. And again, the

[47:28] Untitled

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Zachary Marlow

People think of as anarchic. They think that means chaotic. But again, Ostrom laid out principles for governing the commons. And again, the running joke in this film is anarcho-syndicalism. And so in our time today, I couldn't just make jokes about this other movie. I have to push my own radical ideological agenda and use the medium of film that we're in right now, this particular kind of movie, to get people to question the world that they're in and Imagine a better one. And it's this realization that I think the authoritarian view of some big R, capital R revolution happening or some group coming to power and kicking the government out, I think is as Ridiculous as any of the other power structures we have today. I think we need to come together as working people, as people of less, as the peasants of this world and pool our resources and create communally governed structures, horizontal structures And build dual power. I mean, and that's how they did it in the Soviet Union. The Soviet means workers' council. The Soviet is a commons, is a commons, is a commonly governed organizational structure where the people came together and met their damn needs together and formed

[49:29] Untitled

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Rivka

Yes yes yes thank you for all of that just listening and digesting all you're saying and also as you're talking about this it was making me think about because i too this was a movie from My childhood it was i really i really loved it i don't think i realized how much it probably impacted me it was something that was always like on. It was just like part of the culture growing up. It was like one of those kids, kids. I thought of it as a kids movie because it was always just on for the kids. But what I really appreciated was I think the influence that it had. And so anyone with kids, I think it's a great movie to show kids just on a young brain about like how valuable just critical thinking is just like the skill of critical thinking and i think That's like it's satire there's so much jokes around it but it's harnessed in this deep like you always have someone who's pointing out some kind of critical thought like the the coconut Discourse at the top is so great because as you said they don't they have the coconuts making the sound of the horse and they just want to get through the castle and they're like what what Are those are those coconuts like where did those come from?

Zachary Marlow

You've got two halves of coconut, you're banging them together. Yeah, yeah.

Rivka

And he's just like, that couldn't have happened that way. Like they just like paused to like consider the

[50:26] Untitled

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Rivka

And they're like what what are those are those coconuts like where did those come from?

Zachary Marlow

You've got two halves of coconut, you're banging them together. Yeah, yeah.

Rivka

And he's just like, that couldn't have happened that way. Like they just like paused to like consider the like logic of these coconuts. And I think that brought so much, I think as a kid, I loved that. And I think was a huge part of like the education that I received. And I was lucky that I had a lot of adults, my parents especially, who encouraged that kind of critical thinking, like that particular kind of like so often we're told don't take the time To question things. Oh, you're slowing. Don't ask questions. You're slowing things down. And I think it's so, yeah, just culturally part of that. I mean, it's intentional that we don't want kids to think critically. I think it's ingrained in some of the like really poor education of like, don't think, just learn, repeat what we're teaching you and don't ask questions. And this film is all about like, we're going to stop you in your journey and ask the most annoying questions till we like till the bitter end and it's very funny but it's such a good point Yeah it's so valuable and especially for

[57:08] Untitled

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Frank

You as a child, but I will admit, it was totally lost on me as a child. I didn't even clock that scene whatsoever.

Zachary Marlow

I didn't fully understand that scene, and I don't think the words anarcho-syndicalism or autonomous commune or whatever stuck in me, but I think actually what what you're saying that That it's the it's the critique of power it's just the the way that you systematically through this movie ridicule legends kings you know gods you know all authority is just made the Butt of the joke and you know that's that's actually a really good point that like modern comedy like a lot of like our big comedy comedians who are like i'm an edgy comedian like i don't Care but if i offend you they all punch down they're all punching down at people who have less power than they do like trans people are really the ones oh yeah we should really take them Down oh yeah kids these these weak ass kids with their pronouns that's really who the problem is when like something has been really miswired when like these silly oxford educated british Men were using the lowest comedy they could to absolutely piss off

[01:04:53] Untitled

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Zachary Marlow

How could you expect me to live in your society and see you conscripting poor men down by the docks and not take up a sword and strike them down? You could no sooner expect to live in the kingdom of money and not get corrupt than to live in the bottom of a well and not get wet he's just like money is the devil of devils it pits brothers Against each other and and had husbands against their wives and just destroys society oh here's the the rousseau quote he says the first person who having enclosed the plot of land took It into his head to say this is mine oh wait i gotta do it in a funny accent the first person i can't i can't do it like that okay the first person who having enclosed the plot of land took him To his head to say this is mine and found people simple enough to believe him was the true founder of civil society what crimes wars murders what miseries and horrors would the human race Have been spared had someone pulled up the stakes or filled in the ditch and cried out to his fellow men do not listen to this imposter you are lost if you forget that the fruits of the earth Belong to all and the earth to no one hell yeah very

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Zachary Marlow

That was so funny and uh yeah the the other scenes that that really got me this time were the scene with Sir Galahad, and he's in there with all the women. And it just really like I was probing for the meaning of like repression, that we have a repressive culture. We repress sexuality. And that basically is the source of all this dysfunction and all this, you know, deviance and perversion in our society, that we repress our true desires, that we have these religious Systems, these dogmas that have us resist our own most base and human and natural urges. And it's just such an absurdity. I have one thing here that I think I could end on, which is I think the sort of true meaning of the Holy Grail. Another work of art that sort of resonated, rhymed with this. The reason I was drawn to this again and again and again is because of the sort of like mythopoetic resonance of the symbol of the Holy Grail of like the, this unattainable thing, this Unslakeable thirst, this, this thing you quest after. It's like a cup, it's, it's empty except for what you fill it with. And, and I think about The Wasteland by T.S. Eliot, which profoundly changed my brain and how I interpret

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Frank

It was in the middle ages because the middle ages was at least like nope this is how it fucking works this these are the conditions this is the class structure whereas today we are just Like so gaslit into believing like oh no this is actually the this is actually the best that we can do yeah i mean and in the middle ages they had literally hundreds of days off a year they

Zachary Marlow

Had hundreds of festivals they had all these common activities they had a lot more autonomy than a lot of people do today It's a slept on period. And it's a very interesting period. I was thinking earlier about the sort of credit relations. Before they hauled back masses of silver extracted out of the Americas and used all that slave labor to basically create the primitive accumulation of capitalism, it was a largely Moneyless system. I mean, people existed in a state of credit, of mutual credit, which is, we did a podcast with them on Moneyless Society about mutual credit with a whole panel of alternative currency Experts, where basically the old story is like the medieval town didn't work on money or on barter. It worked on credit. That's how most of human history operated, not in, I give you this and you give me that. It's like,

[01:25:19] Untitled

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Frank

I was like, what? What is Monty Python has to have to say about anything? And you came in, you were like, nope, here's here's my pitch. Here's what it's about. Here's what's going on. I was sold and hearing you speak about it, it completely illuminated so much. So thank you. Really cool. But before we let you go, the last thing we like to ask our guest is, is there something you do? I'm guessing you have a few things you do. But is there something that you do in your everyday life where you get the chance to practice your anti-capitalist values? This could be anything from like a daily practice to an organization you work with so is there anything you'd like to share with us i shoplifted a little uh pillow cover from walmart today

Zachary Marlow

That's number numero uno that's the bare minimum community service i could do to expropriate the stolen uh fruits of the land and bring them back into the comms especially from a place Like walmart no but seriously yeah i'm a a filmmaker i've been uh on a quest of my own to expose the capitalist system in an epic interconnected film series that's uh brought me literally To like five continents at this point i'm oh wow you know in a sort of rift right now like trying to find funding connections and help to finish the film to go to the biggest sort of revolutionary Places in the world to go to rajaba and

S7 E2: BC: Before Capitalism

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Episode metadata

Show notes > To fully grasp capitalism, it helps to understand the system it replaced – and the most meaningful differences between feudalism and capitalism. We visit the British Isles of the Middle Ages.  
> By John Biewen, with co-host Ellen McGirt. Interviews with Karen Dempsey, Ben Jervis, and Eleanor Janega. Story editor: Loretta Williams. Music by Michelle Osis, Lilli Haydn, Chris Westlake, Alex Symcox, and Goodnight, Lucas. Music consulting by Joe Augustine of Narrative Music. “Capitalism” is a production of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University, in partnership with Imperative 21. 
>
>
> Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices
  • Show notes link:: open website
  • Tags: #podcasts #snipd
  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Episode AI notes

  1. Medieval peasants actively challenged their exploitation, debunking the stereotype of the meek peasant through significant revolts in the 13th and 14th centuries.
  2. The labor shortages caused by the Bubonic Plague empowered surviving peasants in regions like Northern France and Flanders to demand higher wages and better living conditions.
  3. Historical uprisings demonstrated a collective demand for societal equity, with peasants asserting that land should be held in common and taking bold actions against the nobility.
  4. The 1381 meeting between Watt Tyler and King Richard highlighted how broken promises and personal insults can escalate tensions, leading to violent repercussions for uprisings.
  5. Serfdom in medieval society presented a complex choice for peasants between autonomy and security, as their survival was largely tied to their lords, and the transition from feudalism increased the number of vagrants.

Snips

[29:12] Revolt Against Inequality: Peasants Knew Their Worth

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (27:57 - 29:17)

✨ Summary

Medieval peasants were not merely passive victims of their circumstances; they were aware of their exploitation and actively sought to challenge it. The stereotype of the meek peasant is debunked, as historical evidence shows that peasants expressed discontent and revolted against class divisions, particularly during the 13th and 14th centuries in various regions such as northern France, Flanders, and Florence. These uprisings highlight the peasants’ understanding of their disadvantaged position and their desire for social and economic equality.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Before we say more about that attempted revolution, some context. There's a common idea about peasants in the Middle Ages, that they meekly accepted their place in the scheme of things, or were just too ignorant to imagine a different world. In a classic Monty Python and the Holy Grail scene, where the traveling king encounters peasants working in a muddy field, the flouting of that stereotype is part of the joke.

Speaker 5

Well I am king. Oh king, eh? Very nice. And how'd you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers, by hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society.

Speaker 1

In fact though, a medieval peasant speaking out against class division, to the king himself, no less, is not far -fetched.

Speaker 3

No, they knew it sucked, you know. Couldn't really understand that they were disadvantaged and that they were treated abysmally. And they periodically tried to do something about it, especially the 14th century is a big one for that.

Speaker 1

The 13th and 14th centuries, peasants revolted in northern France, on the coast of Flanders, in present -day Belgium, and in Florence, Italy.

[30:41] Revolts Forge Freedom Amidst Plague

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (29:04 - 30:41)

✨ Summary

During the 13th and 14th centuries, peasants in Northern France, Flanders, and Florence challenged feudal norms, seeking more autonomy and better living conditions. As feudalism waned in the early 1300s, their resistance was amplified by the severe labor shortages following the Bubonic Plague, which decimated the population. Surviving peasants gained bargaining power, successfully demanding higher wages and lower rents. However, the ruling class fought back with restrictive laws, exacerbating rural discontent. This unrest culminated in significant revolts, notably the English peasants’ uprising, symbolizing the broader struggle for freedom and rights in medieval society.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

The 13th and 14th centuries, peasants revolted in northern France, on the coast of Flanders, in present -day Belgium, and in Florence, Italy. Historians say feudalism was already beginning to crumble by the early 1300s, as peasants demanded a bigger piece of the pie, and some voted with their feet, running off to cities to Find work. Then came the Bubonic Plague of the late 1340s. It killed a third of the European population, maybe more. This created a huge labor shortage, giving peasants, the ones who survived, more leverage. They demanded lower rents and higher wages and got them for a while. The ruling class tried to push back, passing laws to limit the wages and mobility of the peasantry, stoking anger in the countryside. We must build a great society where men are born free, live free, work for whom they will, 1981, the place, England, the man, John Ball, preacher, whom some called mad. This is from an educational film produced in 1969 about the English peasants' revolt. The uprising was a defining episode in late medieval history.

[33:25] Equity Through Action

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (32:40 - 33:25)

✨ Summary

A historical uprising exemplifies the peasants’ demand for an equitable society, asserting that land should be held in common, free from farming charges. The movement was marked by bold actions, such as storming London, liberating debtors, and directly attacking the symbols of nobility and wealth, highlighting the desire for systemic change rather than simple redistribution.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 5

The grapes, but who drinks the wine?

Speaker 3

This is our land and we must take it." As they marched on London, John Ball gave these big rousing speeches and the peasants who were largely kind of coming from Kent, the countryside Down in the southeast came, stormed London, let everyone out of prison, which I think is excellent because the prison is mostly for debtors in the medieval period, killed the nobles They could get a hold on, burnt down the Savoy Palace, and a lot of times destroyed the kind of wealth therein. Some people stole it but a lot of people just destroyed it because the point was that they wanted an actual equitable society. They thought that lands should be held in common, that they shouldn't be being charged to farm.

[35:32] Betrayal Breeds Bloodshed

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (34:24 - 35:31)

✨ Summary

On June 15, 1381, the meeting between Watt Tyler and King Richard quickly devolved from a moment of negotiation to chaos, illustrating how broken promises and escalating tensions can lead to violence. Despite the initial agreement on significant reforms like ending serfdom and redistributing church lands, personal insults ignited the situation, leading to Tyler’s violent death at the hands of the king’s soldiers. This pivotal moment catalyzed a brutal crackdown on the rebels, resulting in the slaughter of hundreds and the gruesome execution of their leader, John Ball, emphasizing the severe consequences of betrayal in the face of collective uprising.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

June 15, 1381, Watt Tyler and a group of rebels met with King Richard at Smithfield to discuss terms for ending the revolt. The king at first agreed to Tyler's demands, making enormous promises that he would later break, to end serfdom, give all the church's vast land to the people, and grant an amnesty to The rebels. But before the meeting could wrap up, insults were thrown.

Speaker 3

You're a lout, Tyler! An ignorant lout! You should never again have your head. You're a pig -faced lout, Tyler! And a cheetah, a liar!

Speaker 1

Things turned violent, and one of the King's men stabbed Watt Tyler. We are here to help them! Tyler was then decapitated. In the following days, government soldiers slaughtered hundreds of rebels and hanged more than 1,000 others. John Ball was drawn quartered, his head stuck on a pike on London Bridge.

[40:12] Serfdom: A Complex Choice Between Autonomy and Security

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (38:45 - 40:17)

✨ Summary

The relationship between working people and their employers in medieval society under feudalism highlighted a lack of independence for peasants, who essentially belonged to their place of work. Unlike modern workers who enjoy the autonomy of being free agents in the labor market, peasants had to navigate a life where their survival was tied to their lords. While serfdom might seem undesirable, it represented a more secure option compared to the destitution faced by the homeless, often composed of disabled individuals or veterans. The transition from feudalism led to increased numbers of vagrants, signaling a change in labor dynamics. Peasant laborers operated under a system where they did not receive fixed wages; instead, they owed a portion of their labor to the lord, with the rest available to them.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

But hearing these scholars describing medieval life, there are important differences too. One is the relationship between working people and their employers, to use the modern term. Under feudalism, peasants lived where they worked and they essentially belonged to their employer and their place of employment. There was no separation, no real independence. None of this sense that we have today, as workers earning wages or a salary of being free agents, exercising our options in the labor marketplace, if we're lucky enough to have options.

Speaker 1

I can't imagine wanting to give up that autonomy to become a serf, but it does cut both ways. For a lot of people, serfdom was the alternative to complete destitution and homelessness. There were homeless people in the Middle Ages, usually disabled folks or wounded soldiers who couldn't do much work, and they survived if they did by becoming beggars or bandits. But the number of vagrants, to use another term of the time, would actually increase by a lot in the world that replaced feudalism. More about that in our next episode.

Speaker 2

John, earlier you made such an interesting point about access to lands, the commons. Peasant laborers usually didn't get a fixed wage or salary. What was fixed was how much they had to hand over to the Lord, and the rest was theirs to keep.

S7 E4: Invisible Hand Guy?

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Episode metadata

Show notes > Economic change happens in a cultural context. We trace the tectonic shifts in the Western mind that made capitalism thinkable – in part through a look at two Enlightenment thinkers: Baruch Spinoza and Adam Smith. (The real Smith, not the one held up as the patron saint of unfettered capitalism.)
> By John Biewen, with co-host Ellen McGirt. Interviews with Kate Rigby, Glory Liu, Steven Nadler, and Wendy Carlin. Story editor: Loretta Williams. Music by Michelle Osis, Lilli Haydn, Chris Westlake, Alex Symcox, and Goodnight, Lucas. Music consulting by Joe Augustine of Narrative Music. "Capitalism” is a production of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University, in partnership with Imperative 21. 
>
>
> Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices
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Snips

[14:42] The scientific project emerged within the context of 17th-century mercantile capitalism.

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  • The scientific project emerged within the context of 17th-century mercantile capitalism.
  • Economic interests significantly influence how we interpret religious and cultural traditions.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 2

And why I think that 17th century was so important and that the context in which the scientific project emerges was mercantile capitalism. And I guess I'm a

[15:17] The rise of mercantile capitalism in the 17th century influenced the view that humans should have complete mastery and exploitation of nature.

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  • The rise of mercantile capitalism in the 17th century influenced the view that humans should have complete mastery and exploitation of nature.
  • This removal of taboos and limitations on how we treat the land was essential for capitalism’s takeoff.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

I think that 17th century was so important and that the context in which the scientific project emerges was mercantile capitalism. And I guess I'm a bit of a historical materialist. I do think that economics has a huge sway and that economic interests inform the way that religious and cultural traditions are read. So this idea that humans have should have a free hand and that they should aspire complete mastery and exploitation, was an absolute necessity for the take -off of capitalism. You can't have any taboos or limitations on how you treat the land. If your economy depends upon the exploitation of what, hey, we're going to call resources.

[17:58] During the Renaissance and Scientific Revolution, a new “permission structure” emerged, justifying exploitative wealth-building.

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  • During the Renaissance and Scientific Revolution, a new “permission structure” emerged, justifying exploitative wealth-building.
  • This served as a green light for projects that would have been difficult to justify under previous cultural values.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

What we're seeing through the Renaissance and especially the Scientific Revolution is a new permission structure, a permission slip.

Speaker 1

These thinkers, people like Descartes, Bacon and Locke, provided people, those with the power and the wealth to make stuff happen, the go -ahead for their exploitative wealth -building Projects, a green light for all of this that would have been harder to find in the prevailing values of European culture a few centuries before.

Speaker 2

Just as the invention of a racial hierarchy served as justification for the enslavement and colonization of people labeled inferior.

[19:31] Before the Reformation, pursuing wealth was sinful.

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  • Before the Reformation, pursuing wealth was sinful.
  • Protestant reformers like John Calvin introduced more tolerant views of money-making, linking it to the “Protestant work ethic.”

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Medieval theologians like Thomas Aquinas took those scriptures seriously and literally. Greed is a sin against God, Aquinas wrote. But Protestant reformers, notably John Calvin in the 16th century, introduced, let's say, more tolerant views toward money -making.

Speaker 2

Indeed, Calvin is known for promoting what came to be called the Protestant work ethic. Work hard,

[20:49] Economic forces drive societal change, influencing ethical frameworks and religious beliefs.

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  • Economic forces drive societal change, influencing ethical frameworks and religious beliefs.
  • People adapt their morals and faith to align with economic realities.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 2

All of this seems to support Kate Rigby's thesis that economic forces really drive what happens in society, and people tend to adjust their ethical frameworks and even their religious Beliefs to align with the economic reality.

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  • It’s tempting to link capitalism to the Enlightenment’s positive ideals, making capitalism seem morally sound.
  • However, the Enlightenment also had a dark side intertwined with slavery and exclusivity, complicating this association.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Next, she says, before you can talk about its relationship to capitalism, you need to clarify what you mean by the Enlightenment. Just the good parts?

Speaker 3

Rationality, universalism, human rights, freedom from superstition, good government, right? These are all the kind of connotations with the Enlightenment. And if we associate capitalism with the Enlightenment, somehow capitalism seems like morally okay.

Speaker 1

On the other hand, Lou says there is the Enlightenment's dark side.

Speaker 3

The Enlightenment also was entangled with slavery and was incredibly exclusive and many of the figureheads of the Enlightenment believed that rationality and freedom of superstition And progress was available only

[31:36] Spinoza rejected Descartes’ idea that science aims to make humans masters of nature.

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  • Spinoza rejected Descartes’ idea that science aims to make humans masters of nature.
  • He believed humans are part of nature, subject to its laws, not separate from it.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Spinoza, like Descartes, promoted the pursuit of knowledge about the world. But crucially, Spinoza rejected Descartes' notion that the purpose of science was to make humans the masters and possessors of nature.

Speaker 4

No, in fact, that kind of mastery over nature would be a delusion that we suffer. He's very clear. Somebody like Descartes treats a human being and he uses the phrase a dominion within a dominion, that is, we are kingdoms unto ourselves. We stand outside the laws of nature and our goal is to be able to make use of nature and control it in ways that dominion implies. For Spinoza, we are a part of nature and subject to everything within nature.

[32:20] For Spinoza, humans are part of nature and subject to its laws, unlike Descartes’ view of humans as masters of nature.

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  • For Spinoza, humans are part of nature and subject to its laws, unlike Descartes’ view of humans as masters of nature.
  • The best society, according to Spinoza, cares for everyone’s needs.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 4

For Spinoza, we are a part of nature and subject to everything within nature. Nothing stands outside of nature.

Speaker 1

Nothing stands outside of nature. Of course, the indigenous cultures that we all descend from once knew that truth. And some, unlike the modern West, never lost sight of it. Spinoza expressed another value that some non -Western cultures held onto, that the best society to live in is one that cares for the needs of everyone. Man, I say, can wish for nothing more helpful to the preservation of his being than that all should so agree that the minds and bodies of all would compose, as it were, one mind and one body,

Speaker 3

And that all together should seek for themselves the common

[37:12] Adam Smith, known for “The Wealth of Nations,” wasn’t primarily focused on economics.

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  • Adam Smith, known for “The Wealth of Nations,” wasn’t primarily focused on economics.
  • His first book, “The Theory of Moral Sentiments,” emphasizes sympathy and rejects the idea of humans being solely self-interested.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

That first book, published before he started writing The Wealth of Nations, Smith's opening sentence pretty clearly rejects an idea that would eventually become central to mainstream Economics. The claim that human beings are, first and foremost, self -interested.

Speaker 2

How selfish soever man

[38:47] Adam Smith believed that both sympathy (concern for others) and self-interest coexist within us, learned through social interaction.

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  • Adam Smith believed that both sympathy (concern for others) and self-interest coexist within us, learned through social interaction.
  • These impulses aren’t opposing forces but work together, exemplified in buyer-seller exchanges where self-interest intertwines with understanding another’s needs.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Smith wrote a lot about sympathy, meaning concern for others, and self -love or selfishness. He said we learn these things by living together in society, and that the two impulses coexist in each of us. This shows up our experiences as buyers and sellers.

Speaker 3

Why is it that we can go to the butcher or the baker or the brewer and say, give me some beer, give me a pound of meat? It's not because we expect them to be nice to us. It's because it's in their own self -interest to sell me some meat or sell me some beer or sell me some bread, and it's in my interest to pay the money that they ask for, to get my beer, my bread,

Speaker 1

Or my meat. For Smith, Glory says, our self -interest in these encounters is intertwined with mutual sympathy, an understanding that the other person needs something too.

Speaker 3

I can understand if I were the butcher of the brewer of the baker why I would want to sell me some meat and vice versa. So we would misread Smith very quickly to see sympathy and self -interest as oppositional. He sees them as two features of human nature that help explain huge, vast swathes of human cooperation in human society.

[40:47] Adam Smith advocated for economic freedom and free markets.

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  • Adam Smith advocated for economic freedom and free markets.
  • He wanted markets to be free from mercantilism (the prevailing system in his time), not government regulation as it’s understood today.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Smith did call for economic freedom and free markets. But what did he want markets to be free from? Not government regulation of the kind that free marketeers complain about today. Instead, much of the wealth of nations is a full -throated attack on the prevailing economic system in Smith's time, mercantilism.

[42:21] Use government wisely to create well-functioning markets.

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  • Use government wisely to create well-functioning markets.
  • Avoid monopolies, tariffs, and rent-seeking, and promote worker freedom.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Wanted national leaders to use government wisely, to create markets that worked. He hated monopolies, tariffs, and what economists call rent -seeking, people taking advantage of monopolies or distorted markets to jack up prices and profits. He also wanted more freedom for workers, the people who had to sell their labor to an employer.

[42:58] Use government wisely to create effective markets.

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  • Use government wisely to create effective markets.
  • Avoid monopolies, tariffs, and rent-seeking to ensure fair competition and pricing.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Wanted national leaders to use government wisely, to create markets that worked. He hated monopolies, tariffs, and what economists call rent -seeking, people taking advantage of monopolies or distorted markets to jack up prices and profits. He also wanted more freedom for workers, the people who had to sell their labor to an employer. He objected to the arbitrary rules and requirements laid down by groups of artisans or guilds that served to block people, especially people not born into those artisan classes, from Breaking in and competing.

Speaker 3

So Smith is saying that free trade is not no restrictions whatsoever, and the government stays out of all kinds of economic regulations. He's saying that it should be free from these kind of unjust and oppressive restraints that restrict how people can employ their own labor and capital.

[43:58] Adam Smith favored capitalism but not unregulated markets.

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  • Adam Smith favored capitalism but not unregulated markets.
  • He advocated government intervention to balance the power between employers and workers.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Had no problem with government putting a thumb on the scale to help working people. He wrote that lawmakers usually sided the ownership class, what Smith called the masters, so any exception to that rule was welcome.

Speaker 2

Whenever the legislature attempts to regulate the differences between masters and their workmen, its counselors are always the masters. When the regulation therefore is in favor of the workmen, it is always just inequitable.

Speaker 1

He clearly was pro -capitalism, though no one was using that word yet. But to say that Smith believed markets left to themselves were the path to prosperity for all, that's

[51:09] Avoid structuring society around flattened, artificial measurements.

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  • Avoid structuring society around flattened, artificial measurements.
  • Remember that reductionist concepts, while sometimes useful (e.g., in science), don’t fully represent reality.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

About an example or two? Here's one. Declaring that a dominant measure of a society's prosperity is the total output of purchased goods and services.

Speaker 2

That would be gross domestic product or GDP. Counting every sale the same, whether you're talking about food or cigarettes.

Speaker 1

Or to take another example, deciding that the purpose of an enterprise that makes and sells things is profit, the bottom line.

[53:15] Capitalism requires the firm.

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  • Capitalism requires the firm.
  • This is a crucial addition to private property and markets, turning market systems into true capitalism.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

Is a crucial part of the capitalism story. We're talking about the legal underpinnings that make it all possible. Maybe, first foremost, the company, the firm.

Speaker 2

AKA the corporation. It's fundamental.

Speaker 1

When I was in the UK, I went to see Wendy Carlin, a leading economist at University College London. I asked her a question that I put to most of the people interviewed for this season, what is capitalism and when did start? She started her answer by saying, capitalism has three elements.

Speaker 3

So it has private property, markets, now they've been around for hundreds and hundreds of years, but the third component that was necessary to turn that market system into capitalism Is the firm, the capitalist firm.

Speaker 2

Those East India companies, the British and the Dutch, were among the earliest and biggest firms founded at the start of the 17th century.

The Matrix (w/ Wren Mack)

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Episode metadata

Show notes > As we celebrate Pride month, Rivka and Frank are joined by actor, director, and educator Wren Mack for a deep-dive conversation about Lana and Lilly Wachowski’s sci-fi masterpiece The Matrix, which has become a meaningful film for the LGBTQ community since its release in 1999. 
>
> They discuss how The Matrix has been misappropriated by online right-wingers who believe they’ve been “red-pilled,” while completely misunderstanding the film’s central metaphor. They also unpack how the Wachowskis unintentionally created a transgender allegory in “Thomas Anderson versus Neo,” and talk about how the movie remains one of the most sexy and sweaty action films of all time.
>
> 🤝 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PATREON 🤝
>
> www.patreon.com/movies_vs_capitalism
>
> MVC donates its ad space to progressive or leftist causes and organizations. If you’re interested in promoting your work, email us at [email protected].
>
> Artwork by Rufus Paisley | Theme song by JustBen
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Episode AI notes

  1. Recognizing the Impact of Environment on Mental Health: The environment has a significant impact on our mental, physical, spiritual, and emotional health. Taking time to ground ourselves and focus on the present through techniques like going for a walk or practicing mindfulness is crucial in navigating overwhelming societal issues and maintaining our mental health.
  2. Concept of Messiah as a Movement: The concept of the Messiah returning is not about one singular person, but rather the collective behavior of people. When everyone behaves as if they are the Messiah, the Messiah has returned as a movement. Trusting the people and not looking for a leader is emphasized. The robots in the series join the people in this belief.
  3. Illusion of Wealth and Financial Struggle in Society: Despite a few billionaires owning more wealth than the bottom half of Americans, most people live paycheck to paycheck. The illusion of prosperity is perpetuated by the accessibility of products like iPhones and the reliance on credit card debt. More and more people are reliant on financial tools to get by.
  4. Challenges Faced by the Trans Community: Statistics show that a significant portion of the trans community faces poverty, unemployment, underemployment, and lack of access to healthcare. They are also disproportionately policed and imprisoned. The system does not work for those who do not conform to traditional gender norms.
  5. Intersectionality of White Supremacy, Anti-Semitism, and Transness: The intersectionality between white supremacy, anti-Semitism, and transness is highlighted. The right seeks clear-cut answers, but individuals can hold contradictions. The experience of trans individuals in recognizing the artificial nature of gender and the lack of duality is discussed.

Snips

[46:17] Recognizing the Impact of Environment on Mental Health

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (44:53 - 46:15)

✨ Summary

The environment has a significant impact on our mental, physical, spiritual, and emotional health. While depression is real and individuals should seek help, it’s important to acknowledge that our environment does not always support our well-being. Taking time to ground ourselves and focus on the present through techniques like going for a walk or practicing mindfulness is crucial in navigating the overwhelming nature of societal issues and maintaining our mental health.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

So there is, I agree, there is, you know, we've all seen these memes about, you know, are you depressed or do you live under capitalism? Right? It's not to say that depression doesn't exist. It absolutely does. Everybody should seek help for what they need. But there is a lot in our environment that does not support our health, mental, physical, spiritual, emotional. And when you start to navigate how bad it really is, like my brother and I talk about this all the time, like he goes down these YouTube rabbit holes of just like, Oh man, it's really bad In America right now. And then we'll both be like, all right, okay, we're both going to go for a walk. We're both just going to look at some trees and, you know, ground ourselves, you know, the hot girl behavior of name five things you can see, you know, four things you can say. You know, because we really do need those grounding techniques, you know, when we're thinking about these large collective things. I mean, something, I know we said we weren't going to talk about the other movies, but just briefly. Oh, no, you can't. I was just more like me, like the later movies, what it, what we discover is that Neo isn't the one that there is no one.

[47:05] Concept of Messiah as a Movement

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (46:15 - 47:04)

✨ Summary

The concept of the Messiah returning is not about one singular person, but rather about the collective behavior of people. When everyone behaves as if they are the Messiah, the Messiah has returned as a movement, not as an individual. This is similar to the idea of not looking for a leader, trusting the people, and having them become trustworthy. The message of the series emphasizes that there is no enemy and the robots join the people in this belief.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

And this is actually based on, or perhaps is just coincidental, but a Jewish concept. One of the theories about the Messiah returning to the planet is that what, that the Messiah will return when we are all Messiah, which is to say we are all behavior. We are all behaving as if we are the Messiah, then the Messiah has returned because the Messiah is a movement.

Speaker 4

It is not a person.

Speaker 1

It is not one singular person who is going to return to us and tell us. You know, like this is Hampton stuff. This is Fred Hampton stuff. Like, you know, do not look for a leader. Do not look for a leader. The answer is with the people trust the people and they will become trustworthy. And I love that that is the message of this series.

Speaker 4

You know, and that the robots actually join up with them. That's right. That there is no enemy. That there is no enemy.

[51:01] Illusion of Wealth and Financial Struggle in Society

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (49:52 - 51:04)

✨ Summary

Society faces a stark reality where a few billionaires own more wealth than the bottom half of Americans, while most people live paycheck to paycheck. A significant portion of seniors struggle to survive on very little income. Despite this, society clings to an illusion of prosperity, made harder by the increasing difficulty of maintaining it. The accessibility of products like iPhones and the reliance on credit card debt further perpetuate this illusion, with individuals living off credit cards likened to being part of the ‘Matrix’ as if they are the battery life. More and more people are reliant on such financial tools to get by.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

And we're in the context of three multi billionaires who are owning more wealth than the bottom half of Americans in society. And most people are living paycheck to paycheck. You know, more than half of our seniors are just trying to survive on an income of like nothing.

Speaker 2

And yet we are still trying to hold on to this illusion like the booping by.

Speaker 3

But it's becoming harder and harder. You know, I think like even it's becoming hard like even within 2000 when this came to think about the context of when this first came out and people were seeing it and maybe it was a lot More of a like easier and now where we're at. The things you have to do to hold on to that illusion, I think are a lot more drastic.

Speaker 2

But we also have things like the iPhone.

Speaker 3

We also have like things that make the illusion like when I think about what are those things that make people feel like I'm kind of close to wealth. It's credit card debt. You know, those are like the little actual manifestations of like people living on a credit card is the Matrix. I mean, it really does you are get that's your battery life, right? You're like literally like making an exchange and more and more people are just living off of things.

[01:00:57] Challenges Faced by the Trans Community

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (59:28 - 01:00:54)

✨ Summary

Statistics show that 30% of trans people live below the poverty line, more than 10% have been evicted for being trans, the trans community faces double the unemployment rate of cis communities, 44% are underemployed, health care is often inaccessible and unaffordable for 80% of trans adults, they are disproportionately policed and imprisoned. The system does not work for those who do not conform to traditional gender norms, which reinforces the idea that liberation is interconnected for all.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

I don't think that's the case, but like I just want to list off a couple of statistics that, you know, 30% of trans people live below the poverty line. More than 10% of trans people have been evicted for being trans. The unemployment rate in the trans community is double the cis communities. 44% of trans people who are working are under employed. You know, it health care is often inaccessible unaffordable and that is growing by the day as we just saw in Florida this last week. This is now 80% of trans adults cannot receive care. It's not just kids and it's the majority of adults. You know, trans people are disproportionately policed and imprisoned. This is materially the system is not working for people who do not play into who choose not to play drag in the way that everybody else plays drag. Right. And it is so these things are these things are tied together. Right. This is why, you know, the constant refrain is like our liberation is tied together. There is no way for all of us to rise. And you even see this like in stone butch blues, you know, where you have historical references of like butch women, non binary people, trans people who are the first to move to the world.

[01:06:09] Intersectionality of White Supremacy, Anti-Semitism, and Transness

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:04:56 - 01:06:08)

✨ Summary

The speaker highlights the intersectionality of white supremacy, transness, and anti-Semitism, pointing out the deep connection between these ideologies. They argue that the right needs a clear-cut answer, but individuals can hold contradictions, as evidenced by the diverse characteristics of those shaping the global agenda. The speaker also touches on the experience of trans individuals in recognizing the artificial nature of gender and the lack of duality as emphasized by RuPaul.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

But she uses phrases like, they have glit shaped the global agenda, but characterizes them as rich white American males, even though one of the people that she lists is a trans woman, Jennifer John striker, who is not Jewish. And she mentions, you know, everybody's favorite Jewish punching bag, George Soros. So, you know, so there this is this is a deep connection between white supremacy, transness, anti-Semitism. And I think this is something, I think it's an ideology thing.

Speaker 4

The right need an answer.

Speaker 1

They need it to be one thing or the other. There's a famous phrase about, you know, two Jews, three opinions, right? We're really good. I'm Jewish. I'm really good at holding contradiction.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 1

We're really good at holding contradiction. And this is also a thing with trans people that the more you progress through your transition, the more you recognize that it's all dress up. And that, you know, as RuPaul says, you know, we're born naked and the rest is drag. There is there is no duality.

When Things Fall Apart

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Episode metadata

Show notes > Climate change, political unrest, random violence - Western society can often feel like what the filmmaker Werner Herzog calls, "a thin layer of ice on top of an ocean of chaos and darkness." In the United States, polls indicate that many people believe that law and order is the only thing protecting us from the savagery of our neighbors, that the fundamental nature of humanity is competition and struggle. This idea is often called "veneer theory." But is this idea rooted in historical reality? Is this actually what happens when societies face disasters? Are we always on the cusp of brutality? Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoices NPR Privacy Policy
  • Show notes link:: open website
  • Tags: #podcasts #snipd
  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Episode AI notes

  1. The concept of the Thin Veneer Theory suggests that civilization is only a thin layer of order hiding our darker instincts.
  2. The debate between Hobbes and Rousseau about the nature of humanity has huge implications for society.
  3. The Stanford Prison Experiment demonstrated how people’s behavior can change when given power.
  4. The aftermath of Hurricane Katrina revealed the true nature of humanity and the systemic issues within the government response.
  5. Common Ground demonstrated the importance of working together and debunking myths to create unity and resilience in the face of adversity.

Snips

[04:01] The Dark Knight: The Joker’s View on Human Nature and the Thin Veneer Theory

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (02:55 - 04:08)

✨ Summary

In the film The Dark Knight, the Joker challenges Batman’s belief in the goodness of humanity, arguing that people are selfish and willing to turn on each other. The Joker’s character represents a stereotypical depiction of evil, contrasting with Batman’s goodness. This contrast between good and evil is a common theme in storytelling and relates to the concept of the Thin Veneer Theory, which suggests that civilization is only a thin layer of order hiding our darker instincts.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

In the film The Dark Knight, the Joker tries to convince Batman that everyone, from the mayor to the people of Gotham, are all just out for themselves. I'll show you.

Speaker 10

When the chips are down, these civilized people, they'll eat each other. See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve.

Speaker 1

The Joker is really interesting. He's the quintessential stereotypical depiction of evil in our culture, I would say. So the Joker believes that everybody is dark, selfish, maybe even a little evil, like how we really are. And Batman is good. These two sides are a trope as old as storytelling, an idea that plays into something called the Thin Veneer Theory. Veneer Theory is a very old idea that's deeply entrenched in Western culture. It goes like this. Supposedly, our civilization is just a thin layer, just a thin veneer.

[05:29] The Near Theory and the Nature of Humanity

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (04:08 - 05:30)

✨ Summary

Deep down, humans are believed to be selfish or even worse, but civilization keeps us from turning into beasts. However, during crises or wars, our true nature is revealed. But what if this theory is flawed? What if it’s a narrative to justify authoritarianism, violence, and inequality?

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

And below that lies raw human nature. The theory basically says that humans deep down are fundamentally selfish, or maybe even worse than that. Maybe we're even beasts or monsters. And the only thing keeping us from eating each other is civilization. Basically, hierarchy, governments, law and order. And when that's taken away... Then when something happens, just a crisis, a natural disaster, maybe a war breaks out, then people show who they really are. And that veneer, it cracks. Civilization goes away. And yes, our true human nature is revealed. This is an idea that many of us accept as truth. But what if the near theory doesn't actually hold up against scrutiny? What if it's a story we tell ourselves?

Speaker 3

What if it's just... It's just justifying authoritarianism, overlords justifying institutional violence, justifying inequality,

[09:57] The Fiery Passions of War vs. the Sentiments of Peace

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (08:53 - 09:57)

✨ Summary

The Federalist Papers argue that war and destructive passions have a stronger hold on humanity than peace. Without government and civilization, people would harm each other. The Founding Fathers considered this when designing the Constitution for the United States.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 4

To judge from the history of mankind, we shall be compelled to conclude that the fiery and destructive passions of war reign in the human breast, with much more powerful sway than the Mild and beneficent sentiments of peace.

Speaker 2

These are words from the Federalist Papers, a series of essays that argued in favor of the Constitution of the United States of America.

Speaker 4

And that tomorrow our political systems upon speculations of lasting tranquility is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character.

Speaker 2

The essays paint a bleak picture of human nature that without government and civilization, people would hurt each other whenever the opportunity presented itself.

Speaker 4

A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired.

Speaker 1

And this is actually something that the Founding Fathers really had in mind when they were designing the Constitution. People of the United States in order to form a more perfect opinion.

[12:22] The Pessimistic View of Human Nature: Thomas Hobbes and the State of Nature

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (11:10 - 12:21)

✨ Summary

Thomas Hobbes was a famous philosopher who believed in the pessimistic view of human nature. He argued that without a common power to keep them in check, people lived in a state of constant war. He described life in a natural state as nasty, brutish, and short.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 2

And while those things may be true, what's often left out of his story is that he was very pessimistic about human nature, and that wasn't exactly original or unique for his time.

Speaker 1

He was articulating a very old view of human beings as fundamentally bad and in need of civilization to behave well. This idea shows up in societies all over the world, but in the West where we're going to focus this episode, the idea was most polynly captured by one of Europe's most famous philosophers, Thomas Hobbes.

Speaker 2

During the time, men live without a common power to keep them all in awe. They are, in that condition, called war, and such a war as is of every man against every man.

Speaker 1

And he argued that, back in the state of nature, we lived lives that were, in his famous words, nasty, brutish, and short.

[14:04] The Ground Bargain of Civilization and the Influence of Thomas Hobbes

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (12:37 - 14:04)

✨ Summary

When we gave up our liberty and appointed a powerful ruler, known as the Leviathan, peace was established. Thomas Hobbes believed a strong government was necessary to prevent mutual destruction. He lived during the Civil Wars and in a Christian society, which shaped his political philosophy. Christianity believes humans are flawed and need redemption.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

It was only when we gave up our liberty and we appointed powerful ruler, that he called a Leviathan. It was only then that we established peace. So yes, we lost our liberty, we gained security in return. That's the ground bargain that we made with the rise of civilization. Thomas Hobbes thought a strong government was necessary to keep us from killing each other, from devolving into a state of mutual destruction. And if you look at the time and place he was born, it's easy to understand why he might have seen the world this way.

Speaker 3

Thomas Hobbes was an Englishman who lived during the Civil Wars, which were bloody and nasty in that country, and they're often blamed for shaping his political philosophy.

Speaker 1

From 1642 to 1651, English elites fought each other in a series of wars over governance and religious freedom. Thomas Hobbes lived during these brutal bloody wars. But author Rebecca Solnit argues that a deeper backdrop was that Thomas Hobbes lived in a very Christian society.

Speaker 3

In which one of the fundamental beliefs was that somehow we fell from grace were kicked out of paradise and were fallen and somehow had to be redeemed through Jesus and the church. So Christianity itself has, if not a thin veneer theory, at least a theory that human beings are kind of a mess that needs some clean up work.

[15:34] The Relationship Between Authoritarian Structures and Imperialism: Insights from Hobbes and Rousseau

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (14:23 - 15:37)

✨ Summary

Hobbes believed in authoritarian structures to control people, which resonated with imperialism and colonialism. Rulers justified their power by claiming they needed to protect people from themselves. Rousseau, however, believed the opposite of Hobbes and disagreed with the idea of civilization as a remedy for the elites.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

Hobbes' idea that somehow you need authoritarian structures to control people corresponds really well to imperialism and colonialism, people who saw themselves as civilization And pose a order on chaos.

Speaker 1

It's been strongly developed in Western culture. Since the dawn of civilization, obviously rulers have always looked for justifications of their power. And this has always been one of the most logical and straightforward explanations, like we need to be empowered to protect you from yourself. A hundred years after Thomas Hobbes published his famous book Leviathan, another philosopher came along, and his name was Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

Speaker 8

Civilization is an oplet phrase to decode the remedies for the elites in Portuguese.

Speaker 1

And in almost every single way, he believed the opposite of what Hobbes had argued.

[17:37] The Debate between Hobbes and Rousseau: The Nature of Humanity and Its Impact on Society

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (16:25 - 17:43)

✨ Summary

This debate between Hobbes and Rousseau about the nature of humanity has huge implications for society. Are we inherently good or bad? Selfish or helpful? It shapes our political discussions and influences how we structure education, among other things.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

So according to Rousseau, civilization was not what saved us, but it was our downfall. The This big debate between Hobbes and Rousseau, it really lies at the heart of our biggest political discussions, between the realists and the idealists, between conservatives And progressives. Very often when we're debating each other on Twitter, it's basically Hobbes and Rousseau all over again.

Speaker 2

What is the essential nature of humanity? Are we inherently good or inherently bad? Are we more prone to being selfish individuals or helpful members of communities? Maybe the way we collectively answer these questions dictates how we structure our society.

Speaker 1

Our theory of human nature has absolutely massive implications for pretty much everything. So just to give a couple of examples, education. If you believe that kids are fundamentally lazy and selfish, then you need a quite hierarchical schooling system. But if you think that kids are naturally curious and creative, then maybe you don't need all that homework.

[19:23] The Justification for Hierarchy and Authority

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (18:28 - 19:28)

✨ Summary

Authorities and invested individuals believe in their own value and necessity, justifying hierarchy and violence. The debate between Thomas Hobbes and Jean-Jacques Rousseau on civilization’s effect is inconclusive, as they lacked substantial evidence.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

It's very useful to the authorities and people invested in those structures to believe in their own value and necessity. And essentially it's a justification for hierarchy, for authority, for the violence that authorities impose, which is always justified as like, oh, we're bombing these people to Prevent violence. The police are shooting these people to prevent violence. We're beating these people up to prevent disorder.

Speaker 2

And all of this brings us back to the essential debate.

Speaker 5

Who was right?

Speaker 1

Was Thomas Hops right? Or was Jan-Jacques Rousseau right? Was civilization or salvation or has it been our doom?

Speaker 2

The truth is Hobbes and Rousseau were both kind of just making stuff up. They had very little evidence for their viewpoints. Modern science was in its infancy when they were alive. These were just ideas that popped into their heads.

[25:44] The Power and Impact of the Stanford Prison Experiment

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (24:49 - 25:48)

✨ Summary

The Stanford Prison Experiment became famous because it showed how people can change when given power. The guards started as peaceful hippies but became monsters. This experiment illustrates veneer theory. It is widely studied in psychology textbooks.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

So that's one of the reasons that the Stanford Prison Experiment became so famous because if you just look at the video of it, it's very, very powerful. And you think, what happened to these guys? And the story, as it's been told for, well, half a century, was that these guards, they initially described themselves as hippies, pacifists, right, who would never heard a fly. But then in the context of being in that prison and being handed this power over the prisoners, they turned into monsters. So it's a very powerful illustration of veneer theory, right? These boys showed who they really were once they were in that situation. The results of the Stanford Prison Experiment made it into almost all psychology textbooks.

[29:42] Importance of Tough Guards in a Prison Experiment

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (28:30 - 29:42)

✨ Summary

The guards in an experiment were supposed to act sadistically towards prisoners, but some refused. The experimenters convinced them by appealing to their values and the importance of the results.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

We really want to get you active and involved because the guards have to know that every guard is going to be what we call a tough guard. Jeffy tells the participant he has to be a tough guard to which the participant responds, I'm not too tough. This experiment was supposed to show that in a prison, guards would naturally begin to acts sadistically towards prisoners. But when some of the students playing guards refuse to treat prisoners badly, the experimenters appeal to their values.

Speaker 1

And so they said to the students, like, you're progressive, right? You want this. You also, you know, want the criminal justice system in the US to be performed quite radically. So come on, play along with this. We need these results.

Speaker 5

It's really important for the working of the experiment because, you know, whether or not we can make this thing seem like a prison, which is the aim of the thing. It depends largely on the guards.

[33:00] BBC’s Attempt at Reality TV: Replicating the Stanford Prison Experiment

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (31:39 - 33:07)

✨ Summary

The BBC attempted to turn the Stanford Prison Experiment into a reality TV show, with psychology professors replicating the experiment. However, unlike Zimbardo’s study, this time there was ethical oversight. The experiment lasted nine days, but the resulting reality TV show was incredibly boring, with no abuse from the guards or any exciting events.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

The BBC had an idea of creating a new reality television show. And they had heard about the Stanford Prison Experiment. They had seen the footage and they were like, this is great television, right? This should be great for ratings. So they asked two psychology professors to replicate the Stanford Prison Experiment, which they would then turn into a reality TV show. This is Alex Haslam, one of those psychologists, speaking about the experiment.

Speaker 5

Where was Zimbardo's study? He didn't have much or any kind of ethical oversight of the project as a whole. In our study, we had an ethical committee on site that was monitoring all aspects of the study and were explicitly there to ensure that we didn't have any of the kind of abuses of the form That were manifest in Zimbardo's study.

Speaker 1

So there would be no interference in the experiment. They would just leave the prisoners alone and watch what would happen. The experiment took place over the course of nine days. Cameras were rolling the entire time. And they turned all that tape into four episodes of reality TV. I have watched the whole BBC Prison Experiment. I'll never get those hours back. It was the most boring thing I've ever seen. Nothing happens. It just goes on and on and on for hours. It's so incredibly boring. Some prisoners escaped from their cells, but there was no abuse from the guards. No uprising.

[37:01] The Devastation of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (36:03 - 37:01)

✨ Summary

New Orleans is in dire straits after the levees break due to Hurricane Katrina. People are stranded and left to fend for themselves as the city floods. With phone lines down and the sewer system backed up, it’s a disaster waiting to happen. The situation is chaotic and apocalyptic.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 6

You cannot even look in the northward direction. There's a building in the south. I need someone out here now.

Speaker 9

I'm going to die in this paddy. New Orleans is called the Big Bowl.

Speaker 6

We've got that here.

Speaker 9

We're not the friends that everybody eat in myself.

Speaker 3

Poor people were left to their own devices in a city that everyone knew was going to flood. Much of New Orleans is below sea level. The levees were going to break.

Speaker 6

When Katrina breached the levees that held the water back, the bowl was swamped. There's going to be a disaster. People were on their own. The water is going to rise in the attic, ma'am. Sunrise cannot come soon enough. Phone lines are down. Up, stop, running. Apocalyptic. The sewer system is backed up. It's everything we feared.

Speaker 8

Where are the rea?

Speaker 3

Immediately after that happened, the U.S. Media, and a lot of government officials, including the

[38:50] Katrina

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (37:40 - 38:56)

✨ Summary

A city in a virtual state of anarchy tonight, experiencing violence and chaos after Hurricane Katrina. The aftermath gave the impression of a total apocalypse, with thousands seeking refuge in a sports arena. Law and order broke down, and basic necessities became scarce. Media portrayed the victims as monsters, adding racial bias to the situation.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 6

A city that is in a virtual state of anarchy tonight. Shots have been fired. They were reportedly rapes. Mojo wouldn't be raped and killed. And she ran arky. People running around with guns. Some considerable violence we are told there.

Speaker 1

The news coverage of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina was dark.

Speaker 3

It gave the impression of a total apocalypse. They sent refrigerator trucks to the super dome, the sports arena in which a lot of people took shelter because they decided there were 200 corpses in there because they decided there'd Been some kind of mass murder rampage. Thousands of evacuees sought refuge in that shelter of last resort only to be subjected to an unspeakable breakdown of law and order. Money no longer existed. Banks were not open. Credit cards didn't work. GTM machines didn't work. There were no storekeepers with a few exceptions. And so people were going into pharmacies to get diapers and medicine. People were going into stores to get food and water. People who'd swung through toxic things and became part of portraying the stranded victims as monsters who needed to be controlled. Except they had an extra layer of racial bias.

[40:19] Racial bias in reporting during Hurricane Katrina

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (39:11 - 40:23)

✨ Summary

Black families labeled as looting, while white families seen as searching for food. Reports of violence and looting were exaggerated, with most incidents at the Superdome debunked. Instead, thousands suffered while waiting for evacuation with limited supplies. The truth: violence during Katrina’s aftermath was not caused by those blamed by the elites. Five police officers convicted in shooting deaths, revealing police and white supremacist violence.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 9

If you see a black family, it says they're looting. See a white family that says they're looking for food.

Speaker 4

They represent a frightening breakdown of law and order.

Speaker 1

The news about the violence and the looting was greatly exaggerated at the highest levels, including by the city's mayor and police chief.

Speaker 3

Most of the horrific violence at the Superdome, the reports of dozens of murders and rapes, was actually a myth.

Speaker 1

Many of the stories of brutality at the Superdome were debunked. Instead, what was happening was thousands of people waiting days to be evacuated with limited food, water, and medical supplies.

Speaker 2

The truth is there was violence that was happening during Katrina's aftermath, but it wasn't being committed by the people being blamed by the elites.

Speaker 5

In New Orleans today, a federal jury convicted five current and former police officers in the shooting deaths of unarmed civilians six days after Hurricane Katrina.

Speaker 3

There had been a lot of violence by the police, by white supremacists.

[41:20] Federal Jury Convicts Police Officers in Katrina Shooting Deaths

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (40:06 - 41:19)

✨ Summary

Five current and former police officers in New Orleans are convicted in the shooting deaths of unarmed civilians after Hurricane Katrina. Amidst violence by the police and white supremacists, those who believed they had divine authority to govern were the real monsters. The governor claimed to have troops ready to shoot and kill, while the mayor was implicated in bribery. Additionally, FEMA’s response during the Bush era was deemed a profound failure, as federal assistance took five days to reach New Orleans.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 5

In New Orleans today, a federal jury convicted five current and former police officers in the shooting deaths of unarmed civilians six days after Hurricane Katrina.

Speaker 3

There had been a lot of violence by the police, by white supremacists.

Speaker 9

You had to shoot somebody, you had to shoot somebody.

Speaker 3

Who were the monsters? It was people who thought they were somehow divinely ordained all the Hobbes to govern over the rest of us.

Speaker 2

Thomas Hobbes, the English philosopher, the Leviathan, remember him?

Speaker 3

I have one message for these hoodlands. They were the governor who said that she had troops and they were locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will.

Speaker 6

The mayor who fell apart. Nagin had taken bribes worth half a million dollars, both before Katrina and after Katrina. The Bush era of FEMA also failed profoundly. Five days after Katrina hit, much needed federal assistance had yet to reach New Orleans.

[42:27] The Delayed Rescues and Deprivation in New Orleans during the Collaborative Government Response

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (41:19 - 42:28)

✨ Summary

The collaboration between federal and local governments caused delays in rescues and shortage of basic supplies. The supposed helpers turned out to be selfish and callous. The elites who watched from afar believed in the veneer theory and panicked, justifying their own violence and selfish behavior. However, the people in New Orleans, mostly black, reacted differently.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

The collaboration between the federal and local governments meant that rescues were delayed and even the basics like food and water or medical supplies were running short.

Speaker 3

So many people who were exactly those people were supposed to be the damn thin veneer turned out to be the wild dogs, the callous people.

Speaker 1

The elites who are supposed to help, they are the ones who panic. It's the elites who are watching the situation unfold from a distance and from behind their screens. They have got their theory of human nature. Their big believers often in veneer theory, so they get very worried.

Speaker 3

The elites decide the rest of us are going to behave badly which justifies their own violence, their own power grabs, their own selfishness.

Speaker 2

Rebecca Sonnet says while the elites panicked, the people on the ground in New Orleans, most of whom were black, actually did the opposite.

[47:00] Common Ground

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (45:55 - 47:04)

✨ Summary

Malik and his colleagues in Common Ground transformed a Panther clinic into a hippie clinic that became a place of unity. By debunking myths and bringing people together, they created a community that grew rapidly. They proved that working together is the only way to survive. Malik and Rebecca recognize that disasters like Hurricane Katrina reveal true human nature. It’s a glimpse into the potential of humanity when faced with adversity.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 7

I seen one of those vigilantes had to bring his mother to our health clinic and our health clinic went from being the Panther clinic to a hippie clinic to just the clinic.

Speaker 1

Malik and his colleagues in Common Ground didn't turn anyone away. It wasn't us against them and chaos didn't have to reign.

Speaker 7

When you start exposing those myths then people start coming together and when they start coming together then they start sharing and understanding that the only way we're going to Survive this is as if we do it together.

Speaker 1

Malik says Common Ground started with just a few people, then grew to dozens within a week, then to thousands.

Speaker 7

There's nothing more noble than saving life as we know.

Speaker 1

Malik and Rebecca both talk about how disasters like Hurricane Katrina are a window into what really happens when the thin veneer goes away. It's a window into what is possible when humanity is put to the test.

Rolling the dice on race in Dungeons & Dragons

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Episode metadata

Show notes > Dungeons & Dragons is one of the most popular tabletop role-playing games of all time. But it has also helped cement some ideas about how we create and define race in fantasy — and in the tangible world. This week we revisit a deep dive into that game. What we find about racial stereotypes and colonialist supremacy is illuminating. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoices NPR Privacy Policy
  • Show notes link:: open website
  • Tags: #podcasts #snipd
  • Export date:: 2025-05-05T18:11

Episode AI notes

  1. Playing as an orc was initially not allowed in Dungeons & Dragons, but players could create a half-orc character, raising questions about the portrayal of mixed race identities in the game.
  2. The term ‘half’ in the game implies that the other half is the ‘normal’ part, reinforcing societal notions about mixed race identities in real life.
  3. Humans used to be the baseline for comparison in terms of traits and stats in Dungeons & Dragons, giving them more freedom and choice compared to other races.
  4. The racial logic in the game reflects its racist origins, with examples such as the Oriental Adventures rule book and the stereotypical portrayal of the Romani-like Vistani culture.

Snips

[22:50] Implications of Bad Guy Races and Mixed-Race Identity in Gaming

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (21:45 - 22:49)

✨ Summary

In most games, playing as an orc was not initially allowed because they were considered too evil. However, players could create a half-orc character. The concept of being ‘half’ in the game made players wonder if it mirrored how people refer to mixed race identities in real life. When describing someone as ‘half’ in real life, it implies that the other half is the ‘normal’ or ‘regular’ part. This notion was reinforced when racial traits for humans, the most adaptable and ambitious race, were read aloud during gameplay.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Okay, so that's the implications of having bad guy races. You know, for most of the game's history, the starting rule set did not provide ways to play as an orc, presumably because they were too evil. But you could make your hero a half orc.

Speaker 4

I'm gravitating toward the half things because of the half-ness.

Speaker 2

And just to reference you all, in real life, Kumari or Casper in the game, has a Sri Lankan father and a white mother.

Speaker 1

And what we're hearing is some of the table chatter from when we made these characters together.

Speaker 2

When they say half in this game, is it like the way people say half in real life when they just say what the part that isn't white is?

Speaker 1

To really hammer this home, this assumption that the unstated half is human is basically exactly a way people talk about mixed race identity in real life.

Speaker 2

Right, like somebody's described as half Japanese, and the implication there is the other half of them is, you know, regular or normal?

Speaker 1

Yeah, as we were playing Kumari, read out the racial traits for humans as described in the rules.

Speaker 4

Humans are the most adaptable and ambitious people among the common races.

[25:18] The Role of Humans and Racial Logic in Dungeons and Dragons

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (23:57 - 25:23)

✨ Summary

“In Dungeons and Dragons, humans used to be the baseline for comparison in terms of traits and stats. This gave them a unique freedom of choice compared to other races who had restrictions. However, some of the racial logic in the game reflects its racist origins, with examples like the Oriental Adventures rule book and the stereotypical Vistani culture.”

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

And in Dungeons and Dragons, part of what made humans so normal is that they used to be like the statistical baseline. This is in older versions of the game, but if your character wasn't human, the numbers given to their traits and stats were defined against the values of the human. And against the zero point of humans. So I mean, I get the weirdness here, but that also kind of makes sense, right?

Speaker 2

Because humans are real people. We have more of a sense of what an average human being can lift as opposed to what an average orc or elf can.

Speaker 1

Yeah, but on top of that, in the game, humans could do anything, be anything, and all the other races had restrictions on what jobs they could take. Or they'd have specific racial bonuses and penalties that humans didn't. So like, humans had this unique freedom of choice.

Speaker 2

Yeah, like why people do.

Speaker 1

I'll say a lot of the messy racial logic that we saw in our game is more of a shadow of how straight up racist the game could be. Yes, seriously. There are all kinds of examples that we could pick, maybe cherry pick out of D&D's huge archive of officially licensed materials. There was like a rule book in the 80s called Oriental Adventures. Oriental Adventures, the what? There was this culture of people called the Vistani who were like a very thinly veiled Romani like stereotype.

Triangle of Sadness (w/ Carla Marie Davis)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by Carla Marie Davis,  co-host of the Sip & Politic podcast, to discuss Ruben Östlund’s brutal 2022 satire, Triangle of Sadness, and how the film is one of the most effective modern commentaries about class politics, even though its ideas regarding gender dynamics aren’t as fully fleshed out. They also dig into how the film confronts the concepts of capitalism and communism head-on, but seems more interested in the influence of power.
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> Artwork by Rufus Paisley | Theme song by JustBen
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Snips

[43:56] The Character of Demetrius and his Cynicism in the Film

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (43:16 - 43:57)

✨ Key takeaways

  1. Demetrius’s character displays a cynicism often seen in wealthy individuals.
  2. Demetrius is unfazed by exploiting and extorting others.
  3. Demetrius is impressed by the protagonist’s use of power, as he is accustomed to using and abusing people.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

It's interesting that you point that out about Demetrius and I didn't really clock that until you just said it but it's almost like there was like a like cynicism to his character that You see with a lot of I don't know a ton of rich people but there there is a little bit of that where it's like look all I'm here to do is make fucking money and I'm just going to do whatever it Takes and I'll be ruthless I'll be a savage I will not care about the other people that I'm exploiting or extorting and his character has that throughout the film so when that turn happens And he's like oh that's cool she's she's using her power now like he's like I'm someone who's just like regularly used to using and abusing people so like I get it game recognized game

[44:59] Exploring the Politics and Message of the Movie

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (43:57 - 45:00)

✨ Key takeaways

  1. He works hard to earn his money, not inheriting it.
  2. The movie examines the embrace of capitalism.
  3. The protagonist recognizes the significance of the female leader replacing the male leader.
  4. The movie’s stance on capitalism is unclear and complex.
  5. The film offers a broader perspective on the human condition.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Well and he also represents right a character that he didn't inherit his money he has this real story that he worked for it profiting off of the earth literally reading fertilizer and Shit so I think there's that sort of like bootstraps moment where he just really I think he really really really truly bows down to the god of capitalism and in that moment she is in some Way I think a firming that reality for him because I think he recognized that she's going to and this is where I'm curious about the politics of the movie at this point where she replaces A leader role as another leader and what value does that ultimately serve Yeah I mean the movie obviously is you know condemns capitalism but I think when we get to the end it kind of muddies The message a little bit or perhaps it you know broadens the message where there's a stool message because it seems to soften the critique on capitalism and then it broadens it to be this You know larger kind of you know look at the human condition

[46:41] The Message of Power Corrupts in Film

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (45:00 - 46:41)

✨ Key takeaways

  1. Power corrupts no matter where you fall on the political spectrum.
  2. The critique in the movie was sharp until the message of power corrupting everyone.
  3. The line about power corrupting everyone is commonly used against socialist and communist projects historically.
  4. The film is critical of capitalism and interested in looking at people inside the system.
  5. There is a lack of intentionality about exploring other options in the third act.
  6. The filmmaker is interested in showcasing people at their worst rather than their best.
  7. Imagining people at their best is more challenging and not commonly done in films.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

And how power corrupts no matter where you fall on the political spectrum that was where kind of the message of the film bumped against me personally because it is it is that that power Will corrupt everyone message which you know there's there's definitely some truth in that but I wasn't crazy about it being injected into this movie because I thought the critique Was so sharp up until that point and because also that the power will corrupt everyone line is a very commonly used line against socialist and communist projects historically like That is a very like that is a western like oh yeah well they tried but like you know turns up how is going to corrupt no matter what and it's a to gross oversimplification and it doesn't take An account like the incredibly complicated historical context with any any socialist or communist projects that has been tried around the world so it took the bite out of the capitalist Critique a little bit for me I mean I don't know that he's necessarily making a film with intentionally anti capitalist critique I mean I think he's critical of capitalism but I think

Speaker 1

His interest it really is about looking at people inside of this system and I wonder if that's why it sort of loses it in this third act because I do think there would have to be an intentionality About what are the other options here and he was really I mean he's talked about being really interested in seeing people not at their best but at their worst and about bad behavior and I would be much I think it's more challenging actually to try and imagine people at their best and that's why most films don't do it because we're really scared of it but like what would

Hook (w/ Larry Powell)

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Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by award-winning infini-hyphenate artist Larry Powell (they/them) to discuss Steven Spielberg's 1991 classic Hook . Beloved by many, this live-action Peter Pan story starring Robin Williams doubles as a critique of capitalism's impact on family structure, reminding us of the importance of reconnecting with our inner child and radical imagination. The group also delves into the colonial nature of Neverland and its gender politics.
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> Powell House of Arts
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> MVC donates its ad space to progressive or leftist causes and organizations. If you’re interested in promoting your work, email us at [email protected].
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> Artwork by Rufus Paisley | Theme song by JustBen
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Snips

[49:04] Untitled

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (47:54 - 49:04)

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🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (53:51 - 55:01)

The World of Shiny Turtles

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Show notes > Can you imagine what your life would be like if a volcano erupted in your backyard every month? Well, you don't have to imagine because we've already done it for you, and it is a wild ride filled with rock-eating turtles with mean senses of humor.
> HOSTED by Moiya McTier ( https://twitter.com/GoAstroMo ), astrophysicist and folklorist 
> GUESTS
> 1. Thea Gessler is a getting her PhD in evolutionary biology at Iowa State University. She studies sex determination in turtles! You can follow her on twitter at https://twitter.com/theagessler
> 2. Mika McKinnon is a geophysicist who studies natural disasters up close, so she's basically the bravest person I've ever met. She knows all the best rocks to lick and you can follow her on twitter at https://twitter.com/mikamckinnon
> 3. Andrea Jones-Rooy has two last names because she's too awesome for just one. She's a political scientist, CIRCUS PERFORMER, and host of the show Ask a Political Scientist. You can follow her on twitter at https://twitter.com/jonesrooy
> FIND US ONLINE
> FIND US ONLINE
> - patreon:  patreon.com/goastromo
> - twitter: https://twitter.com/ExolorePod
> - instagram: https://www.instagram.com/exolorepod/
> - website: https://exolorepod.wixsite.com/exolore
> CREDITS
> - Music:  https://www.purple-planet.com
> - Cover art: Stephen J. Reisig, http://stephenjreisig.com/
> ABOUT US
> Have you ever wished you could travel to an alien world? Exolore can help with that! In each episode, astrophysicist/folklorist Moiya McTier invites expert guests to help her imagine life on an alien planet. You'll learn, you'll laugh, and you'll gain an appreciation for how special our planet really is.
> See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info .
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Episode AI notes

  1. Volcanoes alone do not guarantee the presence of an atmosphere similar to Earth. The type and location of volcanoes vary, producing different volcanic formations.
  2. Adapting to new conditions and having the ability to move or change behavior is important for survival. Swimming is a valuable trait for living in different environments. Adapting to high acidity levels can be beneficial in volcanic caves.
  3. Incorporating volcanic rocks into the body can serve as a framework for growth. Eating pyrite helps turtles obtain calcium carbonate for their shells. Planning for natural disasters and constant disruption is important.
  4. With the advent of agriculture, humans were able to settle down and form formal government systems. Mutual aid agreements and innovative farming practices can still sustain communities without centralized government. There are alternatives to traditional land-based farming, such as underwater agriculture and wild farmed agriculture.
  5. The concentration of power and resources can be disrupted in a changing world. Individuals can find alternative ways to gain power through reputation or valuable items. Protecting species from tyrants is a concern. Volcanoes may serve as pockets of wealth due to the production of pyrite and exotic metals.
  6. Creating a place where creatures can live without fear of invasion requires some form of government for protection. Governments can also provide infrastructure and disaster mitigation. Democracies may not always effectively protect citizens.
  7. Wealth and power in society can be influenced by volcano monitoring and prediction technology. The ability to accurately detect and predict volcanic activities can provide wealth and power. Those who possess this technology can protect their resources and profit from sharing information.
  8. In political science, the impact of diversity on peaceful societies is debated. Homogeneous societies tend to be more peaceful, but diversity can lead to positive outcomes through coalitions. Dividing the world into regions with similar materials and distinct features can promote diversity and better understanding of the planet’s interior.
  9. In Iceland, people have adapted to living with lava by building their communities around it. They have developed technology to deal with lava’s unpredictability and create areas with slow and gentle lava flows. Living harmoniously with the powerful force of lava is possible.

Snips

[07:22] Volcanoes and Atmospheres

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (06:15 - 07:24)

✨ Summary

Volcanic activity alone does not guarantee the presence of an atmosphere on a planet. The type of volcanoes, whether gentle or violent, varies based on location. Earth has a mix of dome and pyramid volcanoes due to its combination of land and oceans. Contrary to popular belief, volcanoes do not produce smoke, but rather tiny shards of glass called ash.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

So having the volcanoes alone is not enough to guarantee that we have an atmosphere organ to say this plant has the same interior going on exactly. The next question is going to be, are we talking about volcanoes that are similar to a hawaii, so ones that are on oceanic plate and are really gentle, effusive volcanoes, they produce Great big, huge domes, like a olympusmmons on mars, is like this? Or are we talking about things more like crakatoor mount saint helens, that are like those sharp pyramid volcanoes, with a lot of silica, which is glass, a lot of silica, lot of qarts At traps all the gas, and then youave big, violent eruptions. Those two things are, you're goig to have them in diferent places. Some are going to be on land, some are goingto be in ocean. And it's, it's inherent to that situation. But organizinis like earths, we've got a mix of land and of oceans. Your on to have a mix of both the dome volcanoes and the pyramid volcanoes. Great. Next it is, you said there's going to be smoke. There's no smoke from volcanoes at all. An a, an ash. Its actually tiny sharts of glass. I feel like i've been riding thrugh my entire life. Ye, no, there there's no smoke from volcanoes. That's all ash.

[14:39] The Importance of Adaptation for Survival

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (13:23 - 14:41)

✨ Summary

The key is to weather the storm by finding ways to protect yourself and adapt. Turtles can retreat into their shells, birds can fly to new environments, and turtles can swim across oceans. Having the ability to swim would be a great trait. Imagine a race of super powerful turtle people. Additionally, there is a collection of sharks adapted to handle high acidity in a volcanic cave. Volcanoes produce carbon dioxide which reacts with ocean water, creating carbonic acid.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Well, the key is to be able to like, kind of weather out the storm. So you don't want to be able to maybe, like recede into something, maybe like a turtle shell to kind of get away from and protect yourself from that extreme environment, m and get away From it. Or also, um, like birds, they can fly. They can fly to a new environment. So any sort of like trate that allows you to move away. Um, or like change your behavior in such a way to move, to move to new conditions. And turtles can swim, right? They could escape through the water, yes. Oh, like sea turtles, they could swim across oceans. Am a lot of turtles are also aquatics. They can swim across lakes. So ys swimming. Swimming would be a great trade as well. I would be very bownd to have lake just like a super powerful race of turtle people. Yes, on this planet. Yes. What about lake? There's that whole collection of sharks that live inside a volcanic cave, where theyare massively adapted to handle high acidity. One of the things volcanoes produce, as they produce a lot of a, carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide reacts with ocean water, you get carbonic acids, and there you get a a, a buffering happening. If you've a lot of volcanic activity, you won't have a a.

[17:23] Calcium Carbonate in a Volcanic Ocean

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (16:06 - 17:29)

✨ Summary

Imagine if creatures could incorporate volcanic rocks into their bodies and use them as a framework. These ‘fools gold turtle people’ eat pyrite to incorporate it into their shells. We now have part of their diet covered. Now we can think about how they behave in their environment and what procedures they might put in place to respond to natural disasters. With constant, high disruption events, their normality is disruption.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

So imagine that could like, be incorporated somhow to grow us at as like your base yet, if they eat it, yeor they incorporated into their body and use that as like a framework this munch On the volcanic rocks. O be like, i shall eat the pyrite like, you know, goats eat salt, and then just what that as part of my shell. Because calcium carbonate is does no exist. All you would have is, like, any time your calcinu cal carbonate in a hyliacitic ocean, it would just bubble you, and you'd have like a fiz coating then dissolve. That's oa. All right. So we have our fools gold turtle people, and they get the the pirite into their shelles by eating it. So we have part of their diet covered. That's fantastica, what i'd like to start thinking about what they actually do, how they behave in this environment? Mika, i don't know if your work covers a kind of procedures for how you should respond to natural disasters. What, what types of procedures do you think they might put in place? So i'm going to tie this directly into the pliica trunk here, so we can also integrate andrea and into it. So you gan to be in a situation where you have constant, high disruption events on such a recurrent basis that normality is disruption.

[21:15] The Relationship Between Settlements, Agriculture, and the Formation of Governments

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (20:04 - 21:19)

✨ Summary

Before the advent of agriculture, humans were nomadic. With the development of agriculture, people could settle down in one place, leading to the emergence of formal government systems. However, even without centralized government, mutual aid agreements and innovative farming practices like aquiculture could still sustain communities. The possibility of underwater agriculture and wild farmed agriculture offers intriguing alternatives to traditional land-based farming.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

But all that is predicated on everyone more or less being in one place. And you know, early humans, we're nomadic. And then basically, i'm not, this is not my background, ut direct me to the real sentis here. Once we got agriculture and other things, we could stay in one place, that's when we started to really see more formal government that takes the form that we have now, with recorded, Written constitutions that last a raly long time and things like that. Is that fair? Right? Before agriculture, et cetera, humans wandered around. Yes, at's right. I weren't in a world and, ye, go ahead. Mika, i so what would you have about this in the disaster context? That works even without a centralized point of government, as we have the mutual aid agreements. So it's thethe trading off of resources. And you could still have agriculture if it was aquiculture. So your land is constantly changing. But you could do like, deep ocean fishing, or you could do like oyster gardens or things like that, and have those bee stables. So we can get agriculture right? We move this life under water. I mean, that would be our probag. Or slamen and turtles. I could, yeso that, like jellyfish and pirate ok. So we can go back ittrit. We've got oh la agreements. We have a variation of lig wild farmed agriculture culture.

[24:23] The implications of resource aggregation and power concentration in a changing world

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (23:04 - 24:25)

✨ Summary

The idea of no one being able to amass a lot of resources based on location creates an interesting shake-up every 15 years or so, particularly in parts of the world where power or resources are concentrated. However, it’s possible for individuals to find alternative ways to gain power, such as through reputation or valuable items. There is concern about protecting this species from tyrants taking over. The use of volcanoes in producing pyrite raises questions about wealth centers and the abundance of exotic metals.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

This idea that no one can, at least base on location, really aggregate a ton of resources could be this very interesting, if we think this is normatively a good thing, this interesting Shake up every 15 years or so, at least in certain parts of the world where the either the president or the jeff bazos or the whoever of the world, whether they' consencrated power or concentrated Resources, kind of, it all just gets shaken up, and they start anew right? And so so early stages, i would imagine that it would be very hard for anyone to really amass much power or influence. That said, i would imagine that if if these beings are self interested, like humans are, they would find ways to transport that power, whether it's reputation, or carrying certain Precious metals with them that are particularly valuable, or or carrying some sortof weapon. Maybe they develop a nuclear weapon that's not that big, or whatever. So i'm very worried in how we make sure that we protect this species from one or two, let's say, tyrants, from overtaking. Iinyebd mika, where were the use of the volcanoes produced the pyrite? So are we these pockets of t pyrate by each volcano? Soare these goin o be like our are wealth centres, because everyone es enesel anou sinkng is what does wealth look like when you have alot of volcanoes? Because volcanoes produce, like, all the random exotic metals. Like you've got all these random concentrations of everything from the deep earth coming up.

[27:25] The Importance of Government for Protecting and Supporting Nomadic Societies

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (26:10 - 27:31)

✨ Summary

We want to create a place where creatures can live, thrive, and enjoy their lives without fear of invasion. Nomadic societies like in Game of Thrones often involve fighting and conquering, so some form of world or regional government could provide protection. Governments are also useful for providing infrastructure and disaster mitigation, although democracies may not always do a good job at protecting citizens.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

So we want to make sure, presumably, that this is a place where these creatures can, you know, i like to think this is normative, and it's my opinion, but live in a place where they all have Access to enough materials to eat and live and thrive and all those things. Hopefully they can create and enjoy and consume some kind of art, or or whatever it is that that am this being likes to do. And also can live in a way that protects them from fear of invasion, right? And so typically, at least when i think of nomadic societies, i think, cause my grip on history is very slender, a like the datrakian game of thrones, where it's like you have to go and You're fighting and you're conquering, and it's never you can't just live and enjoy your life, right? And so some form of world government, or regional governments would be helpful for this kind of protection, right? And the other thing that government can be good for is providing things like intra structure, which could help with the e dispersion that we were talkng about before. And, you know, governments, as we're seeing in the current world, can be, they're not the only solution, but they can be useful for disaster mitigation. Like natural disasters, like the pandimic, they don't always do a good job. And there's a lot ofnogardage research, there's really good research that shows, depressingly, that d democracies are particularly bad at protecting citizens because of the incentives Around elected officials to show that they recovered well from a disaster.

[33:48] Volcano Monitoring and Its Impact on Power and Wealth in Society

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (32:37 - 33:54)

✨ Summary

In the Pacific Northwest, there are multiple volcanoes but only Mount Saint Helens has erupted in recent history. This raises the idea of a society where the wealthiest individuals are those who possess advanced volcano detection and prediction technology. They can profit by advising others and relocating to safe areas.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

At any one region can have a whole bunch of things going on. So in the pacific northwest, where i am, where one plate going underneath another, we have mount saint helens as our famous eruption in the 19 eighties. We've also abot baker. We've got reiner. That continues up into canada, where we do not even have a volcano monitoring programme. We've got the exact same geology, we have the exact same sets of volcanoes, but our last eruption was over a century ago. So we're just not monioneri that barrel. That brings up a really interesting point. It's when you're world building, its important to talk about the roles that will be common in society. And so i imagine that, especially because we still haven't solved this problem of who has like, how do you get powerful? How do you get wealthy? I can imagine a situation where the most powerful, the wealthiest people, are those who have developed technology or the ability somehow to detect and predict very accurately these Volanos. And so not only can they move to parts of the world that are going to be safe, so they can keep all their resources, but they cann make money, whatever, by telling other people.

[41:13] The Impact of Diversity on Peaceful Societies in Political Science

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (40:03 - 41:15)

✨ Summary

In political science, there is a debate about what creates a peaceful society. Homogeneous societies like Norway are often peaceful, while diverse societies may have more conflicts. However, diversity can also lead to positive outcomes if different groups form coalitions. The question is whether there are alternative ways to achieve peace and diversity. One idea is to divide the world into three main regions, each with similar materials and distinct features. This would provide a variety of landscapes, from calm areas to explosive volcanoes, allowing for a better understanding of the planet’s interior.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Yes, well. And it's one of those where it's like, you know, once you get into, there's a lot of conversations in political science about what makes for a peaceful society. And it's, i'm going to really watch this whole literature, but it's sort of like, it's very easy to have a society that's very peaceful, but it's very homogeneous. O, a place like norway, where vone kond of looks the same for the most artwright, places where there's like one or two major divides, whether it's over religious or athnicity or whatever, A that tends to be rough, like one against the other. And then if you mat ti a world where there's a lot of different varieties, you don't really get those, unless they form coalitions, you don't really get those, like, same kinds of, like, Cleavages that can be really problematic. So, are there other ways, hopefully, that we can these turtles a their bronze and is there, you knowr or neon, like our violuminescenc like, if we can have more diversity, that would Actually make it feel better. If that makes an we could have, like, there'd be three main regions where inside those regions, you'd have the same basic materials s. You've got your ridges, four regions. Parvey. You've got your your ridges spreading areas where everything is kind of calm and gentle. A man, you have like, access to pretty much straight up mantle sampling of what the iside the planet looks like. You've got the the silk ofrich, explosive volcanoes, the most dangerous ones.

[47:20] Living with Lava: Harnessing and Adapting to Volcanic Activity

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (46:09 - 47:20)

✨ Summary

In Iceland, lava is considered a natural force that cannot be controlled. Instead of trying to redirect it, people have adapted by building their communities around it. They have developed technology to deal with lava, resulting in areas with slow and gentle lava flows. Despite the challenges, they have found ways to live harmoniously with this powerful force.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Imagine tha jerry ti fell turtle creature on the plan would these lava pools then become like like defence mechanisms, or defences around like, the wealthy people houses and rat so Good you harness lava, that's like a whole big thing. So iceland is the only place that sicks it out, like thess of there's a lot of movies about trying to like harness and direct where lava is going to go, ub like spraying water at it, or whatever Else, and trying to re direct it. But for the most part, lava just does what it's going to do. So you would have to build your community around the lava instead of the lava around you. It, which always has the hard bit of what is the lava turn next time? Which is what we see in hawaii with, like, the gulf courses that got taken out during the last set of eruptions. But you can also imagine that, because this is so integral to their lives, that they spend a lot of time and energy trying to develop technology to deal with lava. And so maybe we don't have the ability to control it, but maybe they have just worked on it so much t at they have developed this technology, and you can end up in places where you've got So the the rounded volcanoes will do the slow, gentle lava flow that you can walk away from,

The History of Timekeeping (Radio Edit)

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Episode metadata

Show notes > Greg Jenner is joined by Dr David Rooney and Desiree Burch at the literal beginning of time to explore the history of timekeeping. Covering everything from the origins of timekeeping to time in space, we even learn how you can smell the time! Above all, we finally find out who you can blame for daylight savings and the real reason it was invented.
> For the full-length version of this episode, please look further back in the feed.
> Research by Rosie Rich
> Written by Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner
> Produced by Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner
> Assistant Producer: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow
> Project Management: Isla Matthews
> Audio Producer: Steve Hankey
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Episode AI notes

  1. People in ancient Rome were grumpy and resistant to new technology like sundials, as shown through texts and plays from that period.
  2. Water clocks, Klepsidra, and fire clocks were ancient timekeeping technologies used in different cultures.
  3. Mechanical clocks were first made in Europe in the 11th or 12th century and were initially used to ring bells from tall towers.
  4. With the introduction of small clocks in homes and portable watches, timekeeping became more personal.
  5. The idea of time as something valuable originated from religious perspectives and shaped the way people perceive and spend their time.
  6. Time standardization in 19th century Britain was driven by political concerns such as alcohol consumption and factory work.
  7. Throughout history, people have resisted the control and tyranny of clocks, as seen through acts of resistance and defiance.

Snips

[06:34] The Grumpiness Towards New Technology

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (05:39 - 06:33)

✨ Summary

People in ancient Rome were not excited about the new technology of sundials, and there were grumpy texts and even a play reflecting this sentiment. The idea of staring at the sun all day to operate a sundial was not perceived as the worst job, but it was acknowledged as a challenging aspect.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

Did they have to have a guy up there really high to go ding, dong, ding, dong, ding, dong, ding, dong every hour? Or did they actually... Yes! Just, I mean, not the worst job except for your like, they're in the sun all day.

Speaker 5

So, does it right?

Speaker 2

Imagine you were in ancient Rome. Are you happy? Are you excited for this new technology?

Speaker 3

No, no, I'm not. No person is ever excited for any technology, especially when you're like, all these kids with all their sundials, skating in, being like, it's this a clock, it's that a clock. Don't tell me what time it is.

Speaker 5

You're absolutely right, David. There's some seriously grumpy texts we have from this period. That's almost literally word for word for what was being said.

Speaker 1

There's this incredible line written in a play that was written at the time that those sundials were spreading all over Rome.

[10:44] Ancient Timekeeping Technologies and Scented Clocks

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (09:34 - 10:49)

✨ Summary

Water clocks were an important ancient technology used to track time by regulating the flow of water. In ancient imperial China and medieval Japan, cities had Klepsidra fitted with drums or bells to sound the time to the public. Another timekeeping technology was fire clocks, which involved using candles or incense to measure time by watching them burn or by smell.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

No, it's actually a water clock, and this is another hugely important technology in the ancient world.

Speaker 1

There are an even older timekeeping technology than sundials, probably, and what a water clock does is it tracks time by regulating the flow of water from one vessel to another. Now there weren't just used in the ancient Med, if you were an ancient imperial China or a medieval Japan, every major city would have had a Klepsidra in a tall tower fitted with drums Or bells from which the time would be sounded to us, the public.

Speaker 2

And then the other technology we haven't talked about in terms of telling the time is with your nose. Desiree, how would you smell time?

Speaker 3

I mean, if I smell food, I know it's dinner time. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Or like maybe the crispness of the air or some kind of...

Speaker 2

Very nice. I mean, these are lovely answers, but we're talking about a proper gadget here. A device, these are called fire clocks. They were used in medieval China.

Speaker 1

It sniffed the time tech, isn't it? I mean, fire clocks could mean candles or oil lamps being used to measure time. So you could watch a candle burning down and you could mark a scale on the side of it.

Speaker 3

I don't need my nose to watch a candle. This is some bucks.

Speaker 5

What?

Speaker 1

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha But the other type of fire clock, which was indeed medieval China, also Japan and Korea, where you'd measure Time by smell by using incense.

[12:16] Mechanical Clocks and the Projection of Political Power

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (11:11 - 12:18)

✨ Summary

The concept of mechanical clocks dates back to around the 11th or 12th century, developed by Islamic or European makers. The first mechanical clocks were made in Europe around 1275, initially designed to mechanize the process of ringing bells from tall towers. These early clocks did not have a visual dial or clock face; their sole function was to ring bells. The purpose of installing these mechanical clocks in public spaces was to exert political power and impose temporal order on the population of towns and cities.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

Some people argue for ancient Greece, but it seems more likely they were around about the 11th or the 12th century, either by Islamic or European makers. And so we're in the medieval world and this is where we get our mechanical clocks, our clocker, our bells.

Speaker 1

So mechanical clocks as we think of them first made in Europe in probably about the year 1275. The whole point of them was to mechanize something that already took place, which was ringing bells from tall towers. In Domestian geared wheels powered by gravity, the wheels were rotated in the air constant speed. Actually the first clocks wouldn't have a visual dial or a clock face at all. All they did was ring the bells. Now the oldest one is an incredible one. I've been up this tower in Kiaja, near Venice, the oldest surviving mechanical clock from 1386. There's another one from that year slightly later in Solesby Cathedral. And I think what they were trying to do with these tall public clocks ringing bells was to project political power by forcing this sense of order, temporal order, onto the population Of towns and cities.

[13:28] Timekeeping’s Shift to Personal Significance

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (12:35 - 13:30)

✨ Summary

Timekeeping was historically tied to religion, navigation, commerce, and trade. However, with the introduction of small clocks in homes around the 1400s and portable watches in the early 1500s, people’s awareness of clock time became more personal. This shift in timekeeping also led to the idea of time as something that could be wasted, originating from a religious perspective rather than a capitalist point of view.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

It's shouting down at the people saying you were being kept in order by this machine, which represents either God or the universe or your political leaders. Timekeeping is important in religion. It's important in navigation. It's important in commerce and trade. But also timekeeping can be personal David. So when do clocks and devices, when do they enter the home?

Speaker 1

So small clocks that you could have in your home, probably start to show, let's say soon after 1400, portable timekeepers you could carry. So what we call watches first made in the very early 1500s. Gradually with these personal clocks and watches increasingly near us and in view, our awareness of clock time became more and more present and personal. And this ties really closely to that idea of time is money rather than a capitalist point of view. It's from a religious point of view. People start to think and of time as something that you could waste.

[14:25] Time Became a Valuable Commodity

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (12:56 - 14:24)

✨ Summary

The development of small portable clocks and watches in the 1400s and 1500s led to an increased personal awareness of time. This shift in perception tied closely to the notion of time as something valuable, not from a capitalist perspective, but from a religious one. English Puritans in the 16th and 17th centuries promoted the idea of a pious work ethic as a foundation of faith, creating a moral connection between time and productivity. This concept of time as a valuable commodity has been ingrained in society for centuries, shaping the way people perceive and spend their time.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

So small clocks that you could have in your home, probably start to show, let's say soon after 1400, portable timekeepers you could carry. So what we call watches first made in the very early 1500s. Gradually with these personal clocks and watches increasingly near us and in view, our awareness of clock time became more and more present and personal. And this ties really closely to that idea of time is money rather than a capitalist point of view. It's from a religious point of view. People start to think and of time as something that you could waste. And the English Puritans of the 16th and 17th centuries start pushing this idea of like a pious work ethic as being the foundation of your faith.

Speaker 3

This is riveting because this is like this weird trifecta of the morality surrounding capitalism going into time. I'm on platysyside about like, I don't even know when I can eat or think or pray or love Jesus because of what time it is. Like the whole idea of wasting time like money like it being a commodity and also the sanctification of one version of spending said time. I mean, when did we start spending time?

Speaker 1

Did we start spending time after we were wasting time? And this is such a strong, powerful idea. And it's been hammered into us for hundreds of years. Those of 17th century Puritan pastor and theologian Richard Baxter, he published an essay in 1667.

[19:36] The Influence of Politics on Time Standardization in 19th Century Britain

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (18:23 - 19:38)

✨ Summary

In the 19th century, Britain faced challenges with local time variations, particularly in relation to the impact of railways on time standardization. Contrary to popular belief, the railways did not immediately lead to unified timekeeping across the country. While the railways did contribute to standardization, the full standardization to Greenwich Time was not achieved until decades later. Ultimately, the decision to standardize time in Britain was driven by political concerns around alcohol consumption, factory work and conditions, child labor, and the regulation of these factors through the use of clocks.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

We have now into 19th century and we're going to talk here a little bit about Britain and about the politics of time standardization because since time immemorial, every place had had Its local time. Bristol, for example, is nine minutes behind London in terms of sunrise. So I've always heard, David, that it's the railways, the coming of the railways in the 1830s and 40s, which forces people to change, that you've got to have time unification across the Country because the timetable is chaos if every town has got its own local time.

Speaker 1

Well, it is true as far as it goes that the railways brought about standardization of time. By the 1850s, pretty much every part of the British Rail network had standardized its time to London time, which meant Greenwich Meantime. And the argument goes to by the 1850s, all of Britain was keeping Greenwich Time. That's where the argument falls down because it was decades later that Britain civilized standardized to Greenwich Time. And why did they do it in the end? Well, at least in Britain, it wasn't about the railways. It was about concerns about alcohol consumption, about factory work and conditions, about child labour and the way the politicians wanted to regulate the sale of alcohol and control Factory work and ours was using clocks.

[25:19] Resisting the Tyranny of the Clock

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (23:57 - 25:22)

✨ Summary

The American approach to daylight saving time in 1963 was chaotic, with individual towns, states, and cities choosing their own rules. This led to a situation where traveling 35 miles could take you through seven different time zones. Time has been used as a tool of control throughout history, but people have always resisted this, from people tearing down public sundials in ancient Rome to a French anarchist blowing himself up outside the Greenwich Royal Observatory in 1894.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

Yeah, and America was hilariously bad at it. So in 1963 an official report complained that because individual towns and states and cities could choose whether to opt in or not to daylight saving time and when they would start it And stop it. You could literally travel 35 miles between Moundsville, West Virginia and Steubenville, Ohio and you would go through seven time zones in 35 miles, which is amazing.

Speaker 3

The time is it. It's freedom time.

Speaker 5

We don't care about your rules.

Speaker 3

It's the time we say it is. The nuanced window.

Speaker 2

It's time now for the nuanced window.

Speaker 1

This is where Desiree and I take a time out and David has two minutes and he's going to tell us about why we need to think about time as a political thing. We've been talking a lot about how people have always used clocks to control our lives. We've also heard that people have been resisting that idea for thousands of years. When those first public sundials came to ancient Rome, people called for the columns on which they were mounted to be torn down with crowbars. Throughout history, people have fought back against the tyranny of the clock. In 1894, on a grassy hill outside the Greenwich Royal Observatory, a young French anarchist called Marshal Boudin blew himself up.

[26:01] Resisting the Tyranny of the Clock

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (24:47 - 26:03)

✨ Summary

Throughout history, people have resisted the control of clocks, dating back to the resistance against public sundials in ancient Rome. Marshal Boudin’s 1894 bombing attempt at the Greenwich Royal Observatory was a symbolic act against centralized control and hierarchical order, aiming to stop the world’s first clock showing official Greenwich mean time. This resistance has been observed in various groups, including factory workers in Europe, labourers in Africa, anti-colonialists in India, nationalists in Ireland, and enslaved workers in the American South.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

We've been talking a lot about how people have always used clocks to control our lives. We've also heard that people have been resisting that idea for thousands of years. When those first public sundials came to ancient Rome, people called for the columns on which they were mounted to be torn down with crowbars. Throughout history, people have fought back against the tyranny of the clock. In 1894, on a grassy hill outside the Greenwich Royal Observatory, a young French anarchist called Marshal Boudin blew himself up. It was a botched bombing, not a suicide attempt. What he'd planned to do was to throw a bomb at the public clock mounted in the observatory's gateposts, the first clock in the world to show official Greenwich mean time. He wanted to resist what he thought was the tyranny of centralized control and hierarchical order by symbolically and physically stopping the clock that made it all work. He wasn't the only one who pushed back sometimes violently against clocks. There's factory workers in Europe, there's labourers in Africa, anti-colonialists in India, nationalists in Ireland, enslaved workers in the American South and many other places.

2. Can playgrounds be sexist?

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Episode metadata

Show notes > Girls around the world are being pushed to the edges of their own playgrounds – forced into corners, or under stairs, as boys dominate the space. Caroline finds the data that shows why this matters -- and asks what we can do to fix it. She also whizzes down some slides in the name of research.
> Bonus episodes featuring behind the scenes chats, rants, and stories from Caroline’s community of generic female pals will be released every Friday for Tortoise members and Tortoise+ subscribers on Apple Podcasts.
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Snips

[15:10] Girls Playground

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (13:53 - 15:12)

✨ Summary

Imogene clark is the co founder of make space for girls, a u. K. Based charity that is tying to fix the issue of girls being edged out of public parks and play spaces. She explains how an experiment was done in the netherlands where only one half of their playground will be used for football. The other half is for activity that’s not football. And then what happened was, one day, when the class bell rang, the boys quickly evacuated the area. After all, it’s just where they’ve ended up because there’s nowhere else for them to go.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 4

And then what happened was, one day, when the class bell rang, the boys quickly evacuated the area. And it was interesting to see that girls and started using thesar for a very short time to practise gymnastics, to go for cartwheels. And it was the only time that i could observe girls using a the space that boys ad useit in during the recess.

Speaker 1

That just makes me feel so sadeyo was really stare year. So maybe the girls don't want to be stuck out at the edges or under the stairs. After all, it's just where they've ended up because there's nowhere else for them to go. And this acceptance that the main area of the playground just isn't for them, it starts early as a rather brutal experiment.

Speaker 3

They decided to chop the playground in half and say where only half is going to be used for football.

Speaker 1

The other half is for activity that's not football. Imogene clark is the co founder of make space for girls, a u. K. Based charity that is tying to fix the issue of girls being edged out of public parks and play spaces. She is telling me about an experiment that was done in the netherlands.

Speaker 3

She explaimes, it was very interesting to hear the different reactions.

Alien (w/ Joe Mayall)

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Episode metadata

Show notes > Rivka and Frank are joined by author Joe Mayall for a deep (space) conversation about Ridley Scott’s 1979 science fiction and horror classic Alien . They explore how the film served as a warning against the erosion of organized labor in the U.S. during the late ’70s and early ’80s, how the film’s intentional choice to foreground the perspective of female and non-white characters, and how the android character of Ash represents the danger of artificial intelligence solely used to maximize profit.
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> Artwork by Rufus Paisley | Theme song by JustBen
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Episode AI notes

  1. The film Alien serves as a reflection of the end of an era in the indie film scene, showcasing intricate details in its dialogue and highlighting the lack of moral basis in corporate idolization of the alien species.
  2. The potential of artificial intelligence lacking a moral basis and actively seeking immorality is a terrifying thought. Stockholders have a legal obligation to prioritize profit over morality, reflecting our system’s values.
  3. Fiduciary responsibility has evolved over time, with a shift towards prioritizing profit at all costs influenced by the shareholder primacy doctrine. There have been varying levels of consideration for worker treatment throughout capitalism’s history, such as a potential for better treatment after the New Deal.

Snips

[38:03] Unveiling the End of an Era and Profit Motive in 70s Sci-Fi Film

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (36:44 - 38:06)

✨ Summary

The 70s sci-fi film captures the end of an era in indie film where detail is prominent. The dialogue and portrayal of profit motive in the film reflect the corporate idolization of the alien species and the aim to reach a state of no morality, suggesting a departure from the indie film era and a focus on profit.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 2

And I have to imagine just, you know, thinking about this being pitched is like, the sci fi jaws in the sky big, it's probably was, you know, being pitched as like, this can be a big blockbuster Hit. But this is the 70s. And I think you feel so much of how in the indie film was kind of still king, you know, it's falling off. This is like the end of an era for sure. But you can sense that in the dialogue in the fact that there's so much detail in this film.

Speaker 3

And I don't know, it's hard to, I'm trying to think about films where you might, I mean, maybe Jordan Peele can get it done in some ways, although I fear less and less, but it really is important

Speaker 2

To watch for that as well. It also made me think of a line where, in that scene, which I also want to talk about when Ash is discovered to be an android by Ripley, but Ash, as the android says part of their part of what They want, like the corporation idolizes this alien species for their because they're in their reason it's a perfect organism unclouded by delusions of morality, which is another Great way to reveal what profit is after that there's no moral basis. And it's actually like the aim is to sort of get to this place of no morality.

[38:59] The Terrifying Aspect of Seeking Immorality in AI

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (38:06 - 39:00)

✨ Summary

The potential of artificial intelligence may not only lack a moral basis but be actively sought after, and this is a terrifying thought. In American law, stockholders of a company have a fiduciary duty to maximize profit, which requires them to put morality aside. This lack of moral consideration is seen as the core basis of the system.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 3

It makes me think of the, it makes me fear that the people after AI truly actually, it's not only don't care that there's not a moral basis for like the potential of artificial intelligence,

Speaker 2

It's that they actually seek that terrifying.

Speaker 1

You're right, it is terrifying. Earlier you asked me like what I wrote about in my blog and what misconceptions people have. And in one that I get all the time is explaining to people what a fiduciary duty is, like stockholders in a company have a fiduciary duty to maximize the profit of their stockholders, Which means it is American law that they have to put morality aside and do what will ever maximize profit. And if they don't do that, they can be sued and they can be found in breach of contract. And that is kind of the core basis of our system, right? There is no room for morality.

[40:15] The Evolution of Fiduciary Responsibility

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (39:33 - 40:15)

✨ Summary

Fiduciary responsibility may have always existed, but it has evolved over time. In recent decades, there has been a shift towards prioritizing profit at all costs, influenced by the Milton Friedman doctrine of shareholder primacy. At different points in capitalism, there has been varying levels of consideration for the treatment of workers, such as after the New Deal when capitalists showed more respect for unions.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Speaker 1

Joe, can I ask you, when did the fiduciary responsibility become law, or has it always been law? And then it's only been in the last several decades that it's been warped into this sort of like profit at all costs, like the Milton Friedman doctrine of like shareholder primacy? Is fiduciary responsibility something that has always existed or is this a new legal concept? I could not tell you if it's always existed. Yeah, I can't say the one thing that I will say is I think at different points of capitalism, there was space for a little bit more better treatment of workers in the sense that after the New Deal, capitalists kind of respected the union

Why Hammerheads are “Like That,” Cartoon Crush Psychology, Entering the Vulture Dimension

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Show notes > Shark scientist Jasmin Graham joins the show to talk hammerheads. Plus, Amanda explains why your crush on a fictional character is actually ok, and Rachel goes in on saving the vultures.
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Snips

[32:09] The decline in India’s vulture population led to a rise in feral dogs and diseases like rabies.

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (31:22 - 32:06)

  • The decline in India’s vulture population led to a rise in feral dogs and diseases like rabies.
  • A study estimates half a million excess deaths in India from 2000-2005 due to the vulture decline.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Rachel Feltman

And then that like rose to 1,200 as the vultures declined so that also led to an increase in rabies and yeah like all of this information has been out there and then in July a study came out That was like how much of an impact did this actually have so they looked at excess deaths in India from 2000 to 2005. And they did a bunch of work to, you know, sort of isolate all the variables. And they were looking at places that had never had a lot of vultures and still didn't because now the vultures are gone versus places that had used to have a ton of vultures and now have Almost none because the vultures are gone, controlled for a bunch of other things that might have changed.

[34:15] A study estimated that half a million excess deaths in India from 2000-2005 were linked to vulture population decline.

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (32:06 - 34:18)

  • A study estimated that half a million excess deaths in India from 2000-2005 were linked to vulture population decline.
  • This highlights the crucial role vultures play in the ecosystem and the significant human cost of their decline.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand
Rachel Feltman

And they estimated that in those five years, half a million people had died because the vulture population had dropped 100,000 people every single year. And that was just because of all of these diseases becoming more common. And they were able to show that the purchase of rabies vaccines went up, but not enough to actually, you know, stop the spread of rabies. They showed that pathogen levels in the water supply went way up. So just all around, like, things got yuckier and a lot of people died because these vultures weren't here to clean up the trash. And in places where, you know, they hadn't historically had a bunch of vultures, things stayed pretty much the same. So yeah, and I think what was the coolest thing to me about this study is that outside experts were not surprised. They were like, we've been saying this. This is what we've been saying. Numbers seem about right. That is how important vultures are. And they were like, but nobody was like mad that this study happened. They were like, if people need to see the big flashing numbers to get that this is serious, it's awesome that we have the big flashing numbers. But tons of people who study vultures and how they impact the ecosystem were like, yep, that is what we've been saying. And vultures are not as threatened now as they were a few years ago, but they're still really not doing well. And they're not going to fully recover in India specifically without a lot of investment in conservation and restoration. And there are people working on this, but there hasn't been a bunch of, there hasn't been much government buy-in to improving and increasing vulture populations. And I get it, right? Like they're not the most charismatic animals. One article I read pointed out that the Indian government spends about $3 million a year to save India's native tigers. And the justification is that they're so important for tourism. And these researchers are like, we showed that losing vultures costs $69 billion a year and kills loads of people.

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